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Chromebooks Were Once a Good Deal for Schools. Now They’re Becoming E-Waste

43 points by leejoramo 3y ago

KirillPanov 3y ago
They call locked bootloaders "LandfillBoot" for a reason.
- CommanderData 3y ago
  We need regulation to end this and have these devices unlocked so they can be used in third world countries.
  - YeBanKo 3y ago
    So third world countries need to deal with out ewaste?
    - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
      GP presumably means so they can continue using the computers. Similar to how "recycled" American clothing often ends up in these countries.
      - YeBanKo 3y ago
        It is not locked, after it stops receiving software updates it is considered outdated and not supported with software provider contracts by schools in the US. Now it’s a very costly vendor lock in. It’s unlikely that a third world country will be able to efficiently repurpose them, where are better alternatives.
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  Luckily, most Chromebooks come with unlockable bootloaders. That's not really the problem. I worked at a coding after-school program. We had a bunch of Chromebooks which worked fine, but were no longer receiving security updates. Since all coding teachers need to be moderately technical people, I briefly considered installing some lightweight Linux distro. I then immediately discarded the idea, because I was absolutely not going to install Linux by hand on upwards of 30 Chromebooks, plus deal with supporting them in the future. A real school would have much more than 30 Chromebooks. Admittedly they might also have a dedicated IT staff for a project like this, but I bet it's still more economical to just replace the computers. (Which doesn't necessarily mean they can afford either of these things.)
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    You don't install Linux over and over again (especially on identical boxen), you install it once, image it, and copy that image.
    - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
      Good point—I didn't actually get that far into the idea. It would still be a ton of manual work, however. Even just the bootloader unlock, while not overly difficult, would be laborious on 30 computers.
      - salawat 3y ago
        Now you know why people like me scream bloody murder as more and more forms of anti-user interlock are bumped to firmware and lower.
Bostonian 3y ago
https://archive.is/c7yZe https://archive.is/c7yZe
leejoramo 3y ago
The real problem here is two fold. Windows and Macs have much longer support for OS updated, after which Chrome and other browsers still will receive updates for many years Second the student testing software/services that schools are required to use is only certified for ChromeBooks that are officially supported by Google. Once the units are no longer supported for testing, they have almost no value to schools even if the are otherwise still fully functional
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  > Second the student testing software/services that schools are required to use is only certified for ChromeBooks that are officially supported by Google Well, that's just dumb. Does the policy apply to Macs and PCs as well?
- didntcheck 3y ago
  I don't really think the education system has anyone but themselves to blame for that then. It's their policy that's the problem, and they who failed to consider its sustainability when they implemented it. I realise I'm grouping a hell of a lot of people and layers together in one collective noun, but it's certainly more reasonable than blaming Google because you just assumed a device would be supported forever
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Perhaps it was not entirely altruistic of Google to get into the K12 Education market to begin with. Consider that kids who grow up are often inclined to choose computers (or whatever they used in school) as a familiar thing that they have experience and skills with. For example, introducing me to Unix in college cemented my career as a sysadmin, and I eagerly ran Minix/BSD/Linux at home at the first opportunity. So if Google could earn itself some brand recognition and some product-based goodwill from young students by furnishing a Chromebook for everyone to play/work on for their formative years, I think it's a win that doesn't even need them to calculate the backlash from rapidly-obsolete eWaste in the future.
ksec 3y ago
I mean I hate Chromebook, or more like any crappy Laptop Which is what 99% of Chromebooks are. But > Google imposes expiration dates, even if the hardware still works. The article doesn't even say what does it mean by expiration. The link [1] which expiration points to talks about Auto Update Expiration. > “I hit the update button and found out it couldn’t update,” Mr. Nielsen said. Well yes. That is like every MacBook or Windows 8 - 10 Laptop etc. Software update isn't free. Your iPhone dont get infinite iOS update, the same with Android. So what exactly is the expiration, which the submitted article takes about, it turns out as listed in the second article [1] it meant, > Immediately after a Chromebook’s expiration date, you won’t experience much of a difference. In fact, you’ll likely be able to use the device normally for months. But some sites might start to act funny. It turns out Chrome inside Chromebook don't get updated like the original browser. So Chrome ( browsers ) may get outdated. And some shitty website will act funny. How the heck is that a Chromebook expiration? You could install Firefox on your Chromebook and it would still work. Complaining about Website not working on your expired Chromebook? That is a website problem. Again I hate Chromebooks, they are shit, just like pretty much every Google product ever existed apart from early days Gmail and Google Reader. But you know what is even worst than Google, modern mainstream media reporting. [1] https://archive.is/RqE36 https://archive.is/RqE36
- scheeseman486 3y ago
  Chromebooks conceptually are fine, they only need to be powerful enough to run a word processor and play youtube videos and most of them pass that bar. I don't think it's a great idea to give kids an OS and web browser that can be remotely exploited, Chrome gets patched to fix zero days as much as add new features. Firefox can work as an alternative but runs in an Android/Linux VM which impacts performance, it's a worse experience. Software updates are free for a lot of things, as much as anything can be free. Most web browsers are free, all open source software is free. The Linux kernel that Chromebooks run upon is free. You can use a decade old Windows 7 key to activate a copy of Windows 11. It's not like Google stop getting "paid", they're a software as a service company supported by advertising. Continuing to update Chromebooks would be a support burden, particularly if the hardware is reliant on proprietary driver blobs. But Google have a responsibility not to create a bunch of e-waste, so they should get their shit together and figure it out.
lifechoseme123 3y ago
add another tombstone to the google graveyard hopefully schools/companies will abide the graveyard-- take note of it... and maybe reduce their re-"liability" on google.
more_corn 3y ago
“Seemed like”. If they aren’t a good deal in retrospect, they never were a good deal.
JuanPosadas 3y ago
Any advice on how to intercept one of these on their way to a trash can, perhaps for bargain price? I'd probably install Linux.
- runjake 3y ago
  Your state or locale usually has a government surplus place and you can buy them from there. It’s always a mixed bag and you have to know what you’re buying. I try to surplus equipment intact and with the cords jammed inside the case if I can, with re-use and buyers in mind.
tedunangst 3y ago
They couldn't find a school district which purchased all Windows laptops to compare with?
p1mrx 3y ago
I think this phenomenon should be known as "software-defined garbage". We're sending electronics to the landfill entirely for reasons written in code that could be changed.
- asu_thomas 3y ago
  No, it's for the sacred profit motive. What are you? A communist?
- xuhdev 3y ago
  Yeah, this is how Google cares about sustainability: https://sustainability.google/ https://sustainability.google/ The culprit is really that Google wants the device to be only usable with connections to Google. However, being unable to update risks security and Google. I agree this is unnecessary and probably entirely about profit. (how hard is it to allow creating local non-Google account?) Faced with profit, all the public relation persona must give way.
SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
Literally typing this on the old 2012 Chromebook running Debian 12. Very nice and snappy.
Zetobal 3y ago
In the early netbook/Chromebook years there were some nicely built devices available. Sure most were a bit underpowered but still. Now it's mostly garbage with even worse chips and more case flex than a rubberband or the premium d vices are as expensive as a MacBook air or a decent windows laptop. I just don't get the target group...
- didntcheck 3y ago
  The software also lost its focus. When they first launched I thought it was a straightforward idea, and sensible for many use cases - an OS with a single purpose: launch Google Chrome. Easy enough to implement with Linux and a "kiosk" single-window manager, and then there's very little else needed except an interface to configure wifi. No other programs, no user-accessible filesystem. The perfect fungible, stateless thin-client for the web age Then they decided to try and ape a "real" OS, with stacking windows and utility programs. I'm confused why they didn't just fully switch to Android at that point, rather than make another Linux-but-not-Linux. I guess this is Google we're talking about. They probably couldn't work out which of the six in-house comms platforms to contact the Android team on
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Because originally they belong to different business units with their own agendas.
runjake 3y ago
Love them or hate them, the current Chromebook market allows schools to afford to put a computing device in every student’s hands. A close second reason is that managing ChromeOS devices is pretty easy and doesn’t require highly-trained people. To crack the market, you’ll need dirt cheap hardware and dirt cheap and easy management. Doesn’t sound too profitable. But yes, stuff gets thrown away way before the hardware goes obsolete, due to the limited ChromeOS lifecycle. Not a lot of schools are going to spend much time trying to get Windows or Linux going because that requires more FTE money than just discarding and buying a new Chromebook. I know this from experience (n= US state level)
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Somehow on most European countries we manage with parents having a computer at home, and while some schools have computer labs, it is mostly a rich school for rich kids, kind of thing.
  - cma 3y ago
    Europe is also behind in tech, though I don't know that this could be a factor yet.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Behind in dumb startups, yeah. We don't miss those. Plus there is always the great wall of EU, if we need to go hart at it, it is doing wonders for Chinese startups.
- xormapmap 3y ago
  > put a computing device in every student’s hands Did anyone stop to think if this step was necessary?
  - runjake 3y ago
    I have my own mixed feelings, but it’s been the goal of the US education system for decades. The pandemic lockdowns really made it a reality across the board.
Tanoc 3y ago
As far as I know there's an even shorter shelf life beyond the software Chromebooks run. Which is their flash memory and RAM. Those components are almost always soldered to the board as part of the Chromebook specifications, meaning if Google pushes a ChromeOS update that exceeds the 2-4GB of RAM these all ship with (you can easily exceed the 4GB by just leaving ten Youtube tabs open with adblock running for about two hours), that means it's constantly pushing into swap memory. Even worse, if the flash memory on the SSD burns out because ChromeOS has been constantly writing to the swap the entire thing is dead. This is a much rarer and thus smaller concern these days considering the push for SSD reliability, but for everyone except those with soldering or reflowing skills once the onboard storage is dead the device is effectively bricked.
rc5150 3y ago
Having worked in a district where we ewasted as many CBs as we ordered, it was painful to see, but even more painful was how much wasted potential these students had except for those with a lot of curiosity. ChromeOS is great because it allows for some semblance of security, student account organization, and lots of happy shareholders who see that infosec audits are passing. The wasted potential is due to the fact that the students aren't learning how to use computers, they're learning how to push data from one SaaS app to another without digging into how and why its happening. They don't understand file directories, file extensions, HID concepts, etc... they aren't learning ANY of the components of a machine in the first place. There is next to no digital literacy training happening other than "make a strong password" and "don't share it with other people", which is great, but that is just creating more consumers who don't know how their devices work and get irate/disregulated when they stop working. (I'm speaking in generalities here, FYI) In my district, I had a group of kids who came to learn about computers, we took apart ewaste, replaced LCDs, swapped power supplies and RAM sticks, wiped and imaged hard disks--they built shitty little PCs that they were able to use and understand to some degree. Naturally, most of those students saw how limiting ChromeOS really is and went on to dipping into Linux, playing with Windows, and just expanding their horizons more than they would if they hadn't joined me. Sitting kids in front of these machines and making them the consumers of the bullshit SaaS "teaching and learning" apps that administrators keep buying licenses for is doing the education industry a massive disservice. Kids need to start learning how these things work. I dunno. It's nice to have the CBs, especially in terms of students who are in data deserts and have LTE connectivity, or socioeconomically disadvantaged families having access to web services, all fine and dandy, but it doesn't solve the problem of the general populace being completely in the dark about how their devices work.
- fbdab103 3y ago
  >...but that is just creating more consumers who don't know how their devices work and get irate/disregulated when they stop working... I am not sure how this has anything to do with Chomebooks. Those who dig into a technical system are always going to be the minority. I also drive a car, but have little understanding of what makes it go vroom.
WheelsAtLarge 3y ago
The real question is: how do we re-use the expired laptops? Seems to me that the better deal for everyone involved is to create a leasing program where CBs go back to the manufactures and they have to figure out what to do with them. They would ultimately find the best way to reduce the waste. I have an expired CB that has a very well made body. It's solid and has very little wear and tear. It can easily do another 8 years of service. I can see a situation where a manufacture can renew it and put it out for service again. The manufactures would have to build them to be renewed but that's not out of the possibility. The term, 'reduce, reuse, recycle' has been pushed on consumers for decades but ultimately the manufactures have to be part of the solution too.

43 points by leejoramo 3y ago

KirillPanov 3y ago

They call locked bootloaders "LandfillBoot" for a reason.

CommanderData 3y ago
We need regulation to end this and have these devices unlocked so they can be used in third world countries.
- YeBanKo 3y ago
  So third world countries need to deal with out ewaste?
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    GP presumably means so they can continue using the computers. Similar to how "recycled" American clothing often ends up in these countries.
    - YeBanKo 3y ago
      It is not locked, after it stops receiving software updates it is considered outdated and not supported with software provider contracts by schools in the US. Now it’s a very costly vendor lock in. It’s unlikely that a third world country will be able to efficiently repurpose them, where are better alternatives.
Wowfunhappy 3y ago
Luckily, most Chromebooks come with unlockable bootloaders. That's not really the problem. I worked at a coding after-school program. We had a bunch of Chromebooks which worked fine, but were no longer receiving security updates. Since all coding teachers need to be moderately technical people, I briefly considered installing some lightweight Linux distro. I then immediately discarded the idea, because I was absolutely not going to install Linux by hand on upwards of 30 Chromebooks, plus deal with supporting them in the future. A real school would have much more than 30 Chromebooks. Admittedly they might also have a dedicated IT staff for a project like this, but I bet it's still more economical to just replace the computers. (Which doesn't necessarily mean they can afford either of these things.)
- pessimizer 3y ago
  You don't install Linux over and over again (especially on identical boxen), you install it once, image it, and copy that image.
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    Good point—I didn't actually get that far into the idea. It would still be a ton of manual work, however. Even just the bootloader unlock, while not overly difficult, would be laborious on 30 computers.
    - salawat 3y ago
      Now you know why people like me scream bloody murder as more and more forms of anti-user interlock are bumped to firmware and lower.

Bostonian 3y ago

https://archive.is/c7yZe https://archive.is/c7yZe

leejoramo 3y ago

The real problem here is two fold. Windows and Macs have much longer support for OS updated, after which Chrome and other browsers still will receive updates for many years Second the student testing software/services that schools are required to use is only certified for ChromeBooks that are officially supported by Google. Once the units are no longer supported for testing, they have almost no value to schools even if the are otherwise still fully functional

Wowfunhappy 3y ago
> Second the student testing software/services that schools are required to use is only certified for ChromeBooks that are officially supported by Google Well, that's just dumb. Does the policy apply to Macs and PCs as well?
didntcheck 3y ago
I don't really think the education system has anyone but themselves to blame for that then. It's their policy that's the problem, and they who failed to consider its sustainability when they implemented it. I realise I'm grouping a hell of a lot of people and layers together in one collective noun, but it's certainly more reasonable than blaming Google because you just assumed a device would be supported forever

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago

Perhaps it was not entirely altruistic of Google to get into the K12 Education market to begin with. Consider that kids who grow up are often inclined to choose computers (or whatever they used in school) as a familiar thing that they have experience and skills with. For example, introducing me to Unix in college cemented my career as a sysadmin, and I eagerly ran Minix/BSD/Linux at home at the first opportunity. So if Google could earn itself some brand recognition and some product-based goodwill from young students by furnishing a Chromebook for everyone to play/work on for their formative years, I think it's a win that doesn't even need them to calculate the backlash from rapidly-obsolete eWaste in the future.

ksec 3y ago

I mean I hate Chromebook, or more like any crappy Laptop Which is what 99% of Chromebooks are. But > Google imposes expiration dates, even if the hardware still works. The article doesn't even say what does it mean by expiration. The link [1] which expiration points to talks about Auto Update Expiration. > “I hit the update button and found out it couldn’t update,” Mr. Nielsen said. Well yes. That is like every MacBook or Windows 8 - 10 Laptop etc. Software update isn't free. Your iPhone dont get infinite iOS update, the same with Android. So what exactly is the expiration, which the submitted article takes about, it turns out as listed in the second article [1] it meant, > Immediately after a Chromebook’s expiration date, you won’t experience much of a difference. In fact, you’ll likely be able to use the device normally for months. But some sites might start to act funny. It turns out Chrome inside Chromebook don't get updated like the original browser. So Chrome ( browsers ) may get outdated. And some shitty website will act funny. How the heck is that a Chromebook expiration? You could install Firefox on your Chromebook and it would still work. Complaining about Website not working on your expired Chromebook? That is a website problem. Again I hate Chromebooks, they are shit, just like pretty much every Google product ever existed apart from early days Gmail and Google Reader. But you know what is even worst than Google, modern mainstream media reporting. [1] https://archive.is/RqE36 https://archive.is/RqE36

scheeseman486 3y ago
Chromebooks conceptually are fine, they only need to be powerful enough to run a word processor and play youtube videos and most of them pass that bar. I don't think it's a great idea to give kids an OS and web browser that can be remotely exploited, Chrome gets patched to fix zero days as much as add new features. Firefox can work as an alternative but runs in an Android/Linux VM which impacts performance, it's a worse experience. Software updates are free for a lot of things, as much as anything can be free. Most web browsers are free, all open source software is free. The Linux kernel that Chromebooks run upon is free. You can use a decade old Windows 7 key to activate a copy of Windows 11. It's not like Google stop getting "paid", they're a software as a service company supported by advertising. Continuing to update Chromebooks would be a support burden, particularly if the hardware is reliant on proprietary driver blobs. But Google have a responsibility not to create a bunch of e-waste, so they should get their shit together and figure it out.

lifechoseme123 3y ago

add another tombstone to the google graveyard hopefully schools/companies will abide the graveyard-- take note of it... and maybe reduce their re-"liability" on google.

more_corn 3y ago

“Seemed like”. If they aren’t a good deal in retrospect, they never were a good deal.

JuanPosadas 3y ago

Any advice on how to intercept one of these on their way to a trash can, perhaps for bargain price? I'd probably install Linux.

runjake 3y ago
Your state or locale usually has a government surplus place and you can buy them from there. It’s always a mixed bag and you have to know what you’re buying. I try to surplus equipment intact and with the cords jammed inside the case if I can, with re-use and buyers in mind.

tedunangst 3y ago

They couldn't find a school district which purchased all Windows laptops to compare with?

p1mrx 3y ago

I think this phenomenon should be known as "software-defined garbage". We're sending electronics to the landfill entirely for reasons written in code that could be changed.

asu_thomas 3y ago
No, it's for the sacred profit motive. What are you? A communist?
xuhdev 3y ago
Yeah, this is how Google cares about sustainability: https://sustainability.google/ https://sustainability.google/ The culprit is really that Google wants the device to be only usable with connections to Google. However, being unable to update risks security and Google. I agree this is unnecessary and probably entirely about profit. (how hard is it to allow creating local non-Google account?) Faced with profit, all the public relation persona must give way.

SomeoneFromCA 3y ago

Literally typing this on the old 2012 Chromebook running Debian 12. Very nice and snappy.

Zetobal 3y ago

In the early netbook/Chromebook years there were some nicely built devices available. Sure most were a bit underpowered but still. Now it's mostly garbage with even worse chips and more case flex than a rubberband or the premium d vices are as expensive as a MacBook air or a decent windows laptop. I just don't get the target group...

didntcheck 3y ago
The software also lost its focus. When they first launched I thought it was a straightforward idea, and sensible for many use cases - an OS with a single purpose: launch Google Chrome. Easy enough to implement with Linux and a "kiosk" single-window manager, and then there's very little else needed except an interface to configure wifi. No other programs, no user-accessible filesystem. The perfect fungible, stateless thin-client for the web age Then they decided to try and ape a "real" OS, with stacking windows and utility programs. I'm confused why they didn't just fully switch to Android at that point, rather than make another Linux-but-not-Linux. I guess this is Google we're talking about. They probably couldn't work out which of the six in-house comms platforms to contact the Android team on
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Because originally they belong to different business units with their own agendas.

runjake 3y ago

Love them or hate them, the current Chromebook market allows schools to afford to put a computing device in every student’s hands. A close second reason is that managing ChromeOS devices is pretty easy and doesn’t require highly-trained people. To crack the market, you’ll need dirt cheap hardware and dirt cheap and easy management. Doesn’t sound too profitable. But yes, stuff gets thrown away way before the hardware goes obsolete, due to the limited ChromeOS lifecycle. Not a lot of schools are going to spend much time trying to get Windows or Linux going because that requires more FTE money than just discarding and buying a new Chromebook. I know this from experience (n= US state level)

pjmlp 3y ago
Somehow on most European countries we manage with parents having a computer at home, and while some schools have computer labs, it is mostly a rich school for rich kids, kind of thing.
- cma 3y ago
  Europe is also behind in tech, though I don't know that this could be a factor yet.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Behind in dumb startups, yeah. We don't miss those. Plus there is always the great wall of EU, if we need to go hart at it, it is doing wonders for Chinese startups.
xormapmap 3y ago
> put a computing device in every student’s hands Did anyone stop to think if this step was necessary?
- runjake 3y ago
  I have my own mixed feelings, but it’s been the goal of the US education system for decades. The pandemic lockdowns really made it a reality across the board.

Tanoc 3y ago

As far as I know there's an even shorter shelf life beyond the software Chromebooks run. Which is their flash memory and RAM. Those components are almost always soldered to the board as part of the Chromebook specifications, meaning if Google pushes a ChromeOS update that exceeds the 2-4GB of RAM these all ship with (you can easily exceed the 4GB by just leaving ten Youtube tabs open with adblock running for about two hours), that means it's constantly pushing into swap memory. Even worse, if the flash memory on the SSD burns out because ChromeOS has been constantly writing to the swap the entire thing is dead. This is a much rarer and thus smaller concern these days considering the push for SSD reliability, but for everyone except those with soldering or reflowing skills once the onboard storage is dead the device is effectively bricked.

rc5150 3y ago

Having worked in a district where we ewasted as many CBs as we ordered, it was painful to see, but even more painful was how much wasted potential these students had except for those with a lot of curiosity. ChromeOS is great because it allows for some semblance of security, student account organization, and lots of happy shareholders who see that infosec audits are passing. The wasted potential is due to the fact that the students aren't learning how to use computers, they're learning how to push data from one SaaS app to another without digging into how and why its happening. They don't understand file directories, file extensions, HID concepts, etc... they aren't learning ANY of the components of a machine in the first place. There is next to no digital literacy training happening other than "make a strong password" and "don't share it with other people", which is great, but that is just creating more consumers who don't know how their devices work and get irate/disregulated when they stop working. (I'm speaking in generalities here, FYI) In my district, I had a group of kids who came to learn about computers, we took apart ewaste, replaced LCDs, swapped power supplies and RAM sticks, wiped and imaged hard disks--they built shitty little PCs that they were able to use and understand to some degree. Naturally, most of those students saw how limiting ChromeOS really is and went on to dipping into Linux, playing with Windows, and just expanding their horizons more than they would if they hadn't joined me. Sitting kids in front of these machines and making them the consumers of the bullshit SaaS "teaching and learning" apps that administrators keep buying licenses for is doing the education industry a massive disservice. Kids need to start learning how these things work. I dunno. It's nice to have the CBs, especially in terms of students who are in data deserts and have LTE connectivity, or socioeconomically disadvantaged families having access to web services, all fine and dandy, but it doesn't solve the problem of the general populace being completely in the dark about how their devices work.

fbdab103 3y ago
>...but that is just creating more consumers who don't know how their devices work and get irate/disregulated when they stop working... I am not sure how this has anything to do with Chomebooks. Those who dig into a technical system are always going to be the minority. I also drive a car, but have little understanding of what makes it go vroom.

WheelsAtLarge 3y ago

The real question is: how do we re-use the expired laptops? Seems to me that the better deal for everyone involved is to create a leasing program where CBs go back to the manufactures and they have to figure out what to do with them. They would ultimately find the best way to reduce the waste. I have an expired CB that has a very well made body. It's solid and has very little wear and tear. It can easily do another 8 years of service. I can see a situation where a manufacture can renew it and put it out for service again. The manufactures would have to build them to be renewed but that's not out of the possibility. The term, 'reduce, reuse, recycle' has been pushed on consumers for decades but ultimately the manufactures have to be part of the solution too.