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They’re probably irked by how AI pessimists keep moving the goalposts

ChatGTP 3y ago
It confuses me how people don’t understand that moving the goalposts can be a coping mechanism. For example I have an IT job and constantly I read about startups coming for my job. Yes it might evolve my job but right now with a family and a mortgage, if my job was automated next month I would be completely fucked. Like properly and so would most people who are excited by AI., I’m not really saying this going to happen but I don’t really understand the seeming lack of empathy.
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  coping mechanisms that interfere with completion of a project are really annoying and likely to trigger software engineers that deal with <stupid human tendancy> that moves the goalpost in their dayjob.
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    What project are you referring too ? Do you think software engineers are excited to replace themselves with LLMs? Like they’d feel complete if they achieve this ? I’m lucky I own some assets and have other skills outside of tech so I could probably get by eventually but it would be a major setback financially and professions; however, most engineers I know couldn’t really do anything else but work on a computer and have minimal physical interaction with others.
    - jvanderbot 3y ago
      > They’re probably irked by how AI pessimists keep moving the goalposts Then > It confuses me how people don’t understand that moving the goalposts can be a coping mechanism. And I said (rephrasing) "It's not weird that people are annoyed by moving goalposts because ... " Just saying coping mechanism isn't much of an excuse. Regular human things are still annoying sometimes. Like, it's annoying to set a goal, and when it is achieved, to have everyone say that really wasn't the goal, even if that is a normal human thing to do. When I deal with this at work, it pisses me off. When I deal with it at home, it pisses me off. When I read about it in the news. it ... you get the idea.
      - ChatGTP 3y ago
        I find it frustrating people don’t understand that this project is an it different to launching an app on the App Store though? If you don’t kind of get that then maybe you have no business building powerful technology ? If you were working on the Manhattan project would you feel frustrated if people didn’t want you to succeed ?
        jvanderbot 3y ago
        Yes I bet people would be frustrated if they were working on the Manhattan project and others were saying it's not worth building or were actively hindering it. I would. Why else would they work on it if they didn't feel like it was worthwhile? But that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about moving goalposts which are so commonly frustrating that they have their own term that is known in logic as, surprise, Moving Goalpost. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
        ChatGTP 3y ago
        I bet a lot of people had reservations about working on and completing the Manhattan project because they felt like if they didn't do it, the Nazi's on Soviets would have, it's not really the same thing. I know what moving the goalposts is far out...anyway, where are the goalposts for intelligence defined, do you know where I can find them?
        jvanderbot 3y ago
        AI has had several goalposts set and then moved in the last few years, starting with the Turning test and most recently TFA. This conversation does not seem like an attempt to find common ground. And I've clarified my point ad nauseam. Cheers! Signing off.
        ChatGTP 3y ago
        Yet I saw an interview with Marvin Minsky who says the turing test is useless. Having imaginary goalposts mean they might always end up being moved...so maybe the issue is those who are fascinated with goalposts. "Signing off"
- consilient 3y ago
  Of course it's a coping mechanism, but coping mechanisms that get in the way of protecting yourself are bad for you! Being completely fucked if your job gets automated away in a month doesn't have to mean being completely fucked if your job gets automated away in five years, but it's a whole lot more likely if you spend the first four of them being told you have nothing to worry about.
- stevenhuang 3y ago
  Do you think science should appeal to empathy? Some of us are trying to arrive to a correct understanding of what likely is or isn't possible. How would being dishonest about the implications and sticking your head in the sand wrt a more refined understanding of NN capabilities possibly help you in the scenario you've outlined? I don't know about you but the idea of conjuring up a false edifice as means to cope with reality is kind of obscene. How about something pragmatic, like contemplating the soundness of universal basic income?
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    I'm not talking about me personally, I'm just surprised other are surprised that people are trying to cope with the their livelihoods or worse may be completely obliterated. Maybe emotional intelligence isn't common within the ubergeek class?
    - stevenhuang 3y ago
      Yeah the person asking if this is the goal post's final form--that was a rhetorical question. Obviously they suspect why and they're expressing their incredulity at people still in the denial stage of grief. Being emotive to the extent you're cognitively impaired is not a favourable condition to be in.
      - ChatGTP 3y ago
        people still in the denial stage of grief. I think something has gone wrong with "technological progress" when we building technology which puts large amounts of people into "denial" and "grief". Personally, if people can't really understand that and then make statements like, "they need to remain logical" or whatever, then I guess you'll never get it.
  - ghostzilla 3y ago
    Apparently you deleted one of your previous comments on the topic, so I'll repost it here as it illustrates wonderfully how "pragmatic" your own thinking is, especially the part that matrix multiplication in a loop is "literally what your brain is doing": "Ah it's you again! It's quite funny seeing the dearth of knowledge you routinely insist on displaying whenever this topic comes up. Consider doing some reading on the information theoretic view of cognition and neurobiology. You'll find leading theories for how our brains work have many similarities to NNs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_coding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_coding Another thing, you don't seem to understand that all physical processes can be modeled completely through matmuls. You should also read up on the definition of intelligence because you seem confused on what it means. Pretty much every assertion you make here is wrong and you don't even know it. You assert "it's common sense" something that does matrix multiplication in a loop can't be intelligent, yet get this, it's literally what your brain is doing. Please have some epistemic humility and consider refraining from forming strong opinions on topics you don't have a clue on."

It confuses me how people don’t understand that moving the goalposts can be a coping mechanism. For example I have an IT job and constantly I read about startups coming for my job. Yes it might evolve my job but right now with a family and a mortgage, if my job was automated next month I would be completely fucked. Like properly and so would most people who are excited by AI., I’m not really saying this going to happen but I don’t really understand the seeming lack of empathy.

jvanderbot 3y ago
coping mechanisms that interfere with completion of a project are really annoying and likely to trigger software engineers that deal with <stupid human tendancy> that moves the goalpost in their dayjob.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  What project are you referring too ? Do you think software engineers are excited to replace themselves with LLMs? Like they’d feel complete if they achieve this ? I’m lucky I own some assets and have other skills outside of tech so I could probably get by eventually but it would be a major setback financially and professions; however, most engineers I know couldn’t really do anything else but work on a computer and have minimal physical interaction with others.
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    > They’re probably irked by how AI pessimists keep moving the goalposts Then > It confuses me how people don’t understand that moving the goalposts can be a coping mechanism. And I said (rephrasing) "It's not weird that people are annoyed by moving goalposts because ... " Just saying coping mechanism isn't much of an excuse. Regular human things are still annoying sometimes. Like, it's annoying to set a goal, and when it is achieved, to have everyone say that really wasn't the goal, even if that is a normal human thing to do. When I deal with this at work, it pisses me off. When I deal with it at home, it pisses me off. When I read about it in the news. it ... you get the idea.
    - ChatGTP 3y ago
      I find it frustrating people don’t understand that this project is an it different to launching an app on the App Store though? If you don’t kind of get that then maybe you have no business building powerful technology ? If you were working on the Manhattan project would you feel frustrated if people didn’t want you to succeed ?
      - jvanderbot 3y ago
        Yes I bet people would be frustrated if they were working on the Manhattan project and others were saying it's not worth building or were actively hindering it. I would. Why else would they work on it if they didn't feel like it was worthwhile? But that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about moving goalposts which are so commonly frustrating that they have their own term that is known in logic as, surprise, Moving Goalpost. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
        ChatGTP 3y ago
        I bet a lot of people had reservations about working on and completing the Manhattan project because they felt like if they didn't do it, the Nazi's on Soviets would have, it's not really the same thing. I know what moving the goalposts is far out...anyway, where are the goalposts for intelligence defined, do you know where I can find them?
        jvanderbot 3y ago
        AI has had several goalposts set and then moved in the last few years, starting with the Turning test and most recently TFA. This conversation does not seem like an attempt to find common ground. And I've clarified my point ad nauseam. Cheers! Signing off.
        ChatGTP 3y ago
        Yet I saw an interview with Marvin Minsky who says the turing test is useless. Having imaginary goalposts mean they might always end up being moved...so maybe the issue is those who are fascinated with goalposts. "Signing off"
consilient 3y ago
Of course it's a coping mechanism, but coping mechanisms that get in the way of protecting yourself are bad for you! Being completely fucked if your job gets automated away in a month doesn't have to mean being completely fucked if your job gets automated away in five years, but it's a whole lot more likely if you spend the first four of them being told you have nothing to worry about.
stevenhuang 3y ago
Do you think science should appeal to empathy? Some of us are trying to arrive to a correct understanding of what likely is or isn't possible. How would being dishonest about the implications and sticking your head in the sand wrt a more refined understanding of NN capabilities possibly help you in the scenario you've outlined? I don't know about you but the idea of conjuring up a false edifice as means to cope with reality is kind of obscene. How about something pragmatic, like contemplating the soundness of universal basic income?
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  I'm not talking about me personally, I'm just surprised other are surprised that people are trying to cope with the their livelihoods or worse may be completely obliterated. Maybe emotional intelligence isn't common within the ubergeek class?
  - stevenhuang 3y ago
    Yeah the person asking if this is the goal post's final form--that was a rhetorical question. Obviously they suspect why and they're expressing their incredulity at people still in the denial stage of grief. Being emotive to the extent you're cognitively impaired is not a favourable condition to be in.
    - ChatGTP 3y ago
      people still in the denial stage of grief. I think something has gone wrong with "technological progress" when we building technology which puts large amounts of people into "denial" and "grief". Personally, if people can't really understand that and then make statements like, "they need to remain logical" or whatever, then I guess you'll never get it.
- ghostzilla 3y ago
  Apparently you deleted one of your previous comments on the topic, so I'll repost it here as it illustrates wonderfully how "pragmatic" your own thinking is, especially the part that matrix multiplication in a loop is "literally what your brain is doing": "Ah it's you again! It's quite funny seeing the dearth of knowledge you routinely insist on displaying whenever this topic comes up. Consider doing some reading on the information theoretic view of cognition and neurobiology. You'll find leading theories for how our brains work have many similarities to NNs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_coding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_coding Another thing, you don't seem to understand that all physical processes can be modeled completely through matmuls. You should also read up on the definition of intelligence because you seem confused on what it means. Pretty much every assertion you make here is wrong and you don't even know it. You assert "it's common sense" something that does matrix multiplication in a loop can't be intelligent, yet get this, it's literally what your brain is doing. Please have some epistemic humility and consider refraining from forming strong opinions on topics you don't have a clue on."