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That’s stupid. You could park a golf cart on the train tracks and it would shut down all train transport for hours. You could cut out a piece of the rail very e

That’s stupid. You could park a golf cart on the train tracks and it would shut down all train transport for hours. You could cut out a piece of the rail very easily (with an angle grinder) and it would cause dozens of deaths and shut down the line for weeks. The right course of action is to make messing with automated cars like this a crime just like it is with the railways.

almost_usual 3y ago
Cutting a train track with an angle grinder isn’t the same as taking less than five seconds to put a traffic cone on a car. It takes them 30 minutes in this video. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ISjDp5lL7_Q https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ISjDp5lL7_Q
- soligern 3y ago
  You could disable a diverter in 5 seconds with a sledge hammer. Also your linked video is splitting along the length of the rail instead of cutting directly across it which would take minutes if not seconds.
  - almost_usual 3y ago
    > Also your linked video is splitting along the length of the rail instead of cutting directly across it which would take minutes if not seconds. Watch how long it takes to cut the top of that rail. You must not have ever used an angle grinder before if you think you’re cutting train tracks in seconds. It took me at least a minute to cut through a single leaf spring for a truck if not longer.
    - soligern 3y ago
      What’s your point though? You’re picking an arbitrary cutoff time based on what? The intention is still disruption. Thirty minutes is nothing. We don’t classify severity of crimes based on how long they take to accomplish. A murder is a murder whether you shot a person once or spent hours carving them up. I have used an angle grinder and it takes me about 10 seconds to cut through rebar. I would assume a rail is like 25 pieces of rebar put together so my naive assumption would be under five minutes.
      - digdugdirk 3y ago
        There's a big difference in both material and size between rebar and rail track, but that's just an aside. I believe the point being made is the difference in level of intent required and the known (or hoped for) outcome from the action. Grabbing a traffic cone from a nearby construction zone and chucking it in front of an autonomous car at a traffic light is harmless to the health of everyone involved, but is a pain in the rear for many. Meanwhile, it makes a statement, and some chunk of everyone's annoyance gets directed at the autonomous car company. On the other hand, cutting a section of railroad takes concerted effort and a lot of premeditation if the individual hopes to get away with it. More importantly - the person cutting the track hopes/expects to cause death and destruction. The two actions are wildly different, and should be treated as such.
        slashdev 3y ago
        It’s not necessarily harmless. If that traffic jam blocks an emergency vehicle, people can die.
        danielheath 3y ago
        There’s been many cases of autonomous cars interfering in active firefighting (rolling slowly between equipment, stopping on hoses, etc).
        nomel 3y ago
        Let’s get that taken care of, and not intentionally make things worse.
        danielheath 3y ago
        Some would view disabling the cars which are interfering with emergency services as “get that taken care of”, and attempts to roll out additional cars without fixing the bug as “intentionally make things worse”.
- manfre 3y ago
  It would take only a few moments to weld a metal traffic cone to a train track. Focusing on the exact timing to disturb the mode of transit is not relevant. There are always optimizations.
nerdbert 3y ago
Railways are a little different - for the most part (except at level crossings) they are operating on dedicated rights-of-way, and someone has to go out of their way to interfere with them. A car on a public street is mixing it up with everyone else, and the dividing line for what constitutes "messing with" them is not clear at all. What if I wear a shirt that confuses their algorithms? Shine a light that does it? Drive, bike, or walk in a pattern that does it?
- soligern 3y ago
  This is not wearing a shirt though. This is people deliberately causing disruptions by putting a traffic cone, universally recognized as a traffic warning, in front of the vehicles. A lot of regular people would think twice about what to do if they came back to their parked car with traffic cones around it.
  - albrewer 3y ago
    > universally recognized as a traffic warning Except a real driver can recognize when a cone should and shouldn't be there.
- mannykannot 3y ago
  > ...the dividing line for what constitutes "messing with" them is not clear at all. Putting cones out for no other purpose beyond stopping them moving seems to me unambiguously "messing with" them (though I don't think we need additional laws to address it.)
- PhasmaFelis 3y ago
  > someone has to go out of their way to interfere with them. How is this thing with the traffic cones not "going out of their way to interfere"? > the dividing line for what constitutes "messing with" them is not clear at all. If you're deliberately jamming up traffic by any means, it's perfectly clear which side of the line you're on.
badpun 3y ago
In fact, there's a "prankster" operating in Poland right now, who is sending the "stop immediately" radio signal to trains. All trains receiving it will automatically start braking. They were able to stop 20+ trains yesterday. Also, when they're not sending that signal, they're broadcasting the Russian national anthem on the emergency braking radio frequency...
- interloxia 3y ago
  >Poland's national transportation agency has stated its intention to upgrade Poland's railway systems by 2025 to use almost exclusively GSM cellular radios, which do have encryption and authentication. But until then, it will continue to use the relatively unprotected VHF 150 MHz system that allows the “radio-stop” commands to be spoofed. https://www.wired.com/story/poland-train-radio-stop-attack/ https://www.wired.com/story/poland-train-radio-stop-attack/
waste_monk 3y ago
>You could park a golf cart on the train tracks and it would shut down all train transport for hours If a golf cart picks a fight with a train moving at speed, I guarantee you the train will win.
- HankB99 3y ago
  Yes, and then traffic will be halted for hours while the incident is investigated.

almost_usual 3y ago

Cutting a train track with an angle grinder isn’t the same as taking less than five seconds to put a traffic cone on a car. It takes them 30 minutes in this video. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ISjDp5lL7_Q https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ISjDp5lL7_Q

soligern 3y ago
You could disable a diverter in 5 seconds with a sledge hammer. Also your linked video is splitting along the length of the rail instead of cutting directly across it which would take minutes if not seconds.
- almost_usual 3y ago
  > Also your linked video is splitting along the length of the rail instead of cutting directly across it which would take minutes if not seconds. Watch how long it takes to cut the top of that rail. You must not have ever used an angle grinder before if you think you’re cutting train tracks in seconds. It took me at least a minute to cut through a single leaf spring for a truck if not longer.
  - soligern 3y ago
    What’s your point though? You’re picking an arbitrary cutoff time based on what? The intention is still disruption. Thirty minutes is nothing. We don’t classify severity of crimes based on how long they take to accomplish. A murder is a murder whether you shot a person once or spent hours carving them up. I have used an angle grinder and it takes me about 10 seconds to cut through rebar. I would assume a rail is like 25 pieces of rebar put together so my naive assumption would be under five minutes.
    - digdugdirk 3y ago
      There's a big difference in both material and size between rebar and rail track, but that's just an aside. I believe the point being made is the difference in level of intent required and the known (or hoped for) outcome from the action. Grabbing a traffic cone from a nearby construction zone and chucking it in front of an autonomous car at a traffic light is harmless to the health of everyone involved, but is a pain in the rear for many. Meanwhile, it makes a statement, and some chunk of everyone's annoyance gets directed at the autonomous car company. On the other hand, cutting a section of railroad takes concerted effort and a lot of premeditation if the individual hopes to get away with it. More importantly - the person cutting the track hopes/expects to cause death and destruction. The two actions are wildly different, and should be treated as such.
      - slashdev 3y ago
        It’s not necessarily harmless. If that traffic jam blocks an emergency vehicle, people can die.
        danielheath 3y ago
        There’s been many cases of autonomous cars interfering in active firefighting (rolling slowly between equipment, stopping on hoses, etc).
        nomel 3y ago
        Let’s get that taken care of, and not intentionally make things worse.
        danielheath 3y ago
        Some would view disabling the cars which are interfering with emergency services as “get that taken care of”, and attempts to roll out additional cars without fixing the bug as “intentionally make things worse”.
manfre 3y ago
It would take only a few moments to weld a metal traffic cone to a train track. Focusing on the exact timing to disturb the mode of transit is not relevant. There are always optimizations.

nerdbert 3y ago

Railways are a little different - for the most part (except at level crossings) they are operating on dedicated rights-of-way, and someone has to go out of their way to interfere with them. A car on a public street is mixing it up with everyone else, and the dividing line for what constitutes "messing with" them is not clear at all. What if I wear a shirt that confuses their algorithms? Shine a light that does it? Drive, bike, or walk in a pattern that does it?

soligern 3y ago
This is not wearing a shirt though. This is people deliberately causing disruptions by putting a traffic cone, universally recognized as a traffic warning, in front of the vehicles. A lot of regular people would think twice about what to do if they came back to their parked car with traffic cones around it.
- albrewer 3y ago
  > universally recognized as a traffic warning Except a real driver can recognize when a cone should and shouldn't be there.
mannykannot 3y ago
> ...the dividing line for what constitutes "messing with" them is not clear at all. Putting cones out for no other purpose beyond stopping them moving seems to me unambiguously "messing with" them (though I don't think we need additional laws to address it.)
PhasmaFelis 3y ago
> someone has to go out of their way to interfere with them. How is this thing with the traffic cones not "going out of their way to interfere"? > the dividing line for what constitutes "messing with" them is not clear at all. If you're deliberately jamming up traffic by any means, it's perfectly clear which side of the line you're on.

badpun 3y ago

In fact, there's a "prankster" operating in Poland right now, who is sending the "stop immediately" radio signal to trains. All trains receiving it will automatically start braking. They were able to stop 20+ trains yesterday. Also, when they're not sending that signal, they're broadcasting the Russian national anthem on the emergency braking radio frequency...

interloxia 3y ago
>Poland's national transportation agency has stated its intention to upgrade Poland's railway systems by 2025 to use almost exclusively GSM cellular radios, which do have encryption and authentication. But until then, it will continue to use the relatively unprotected VHF 150 MHz system that allows the “radio-stop” commands to be spoofed. https://www.wired.com/story/poland-train-radio-stop-attack/ https://www.wired.com/story/poland-train-radio-stop-attack/

waste_monk 3y ago

>You could park a golf cart on the train tracks and it would shut down all train transport for hours If a golf cart picks a fight with a train moving at speed, I guarantee you the train will win.

HankB99 3y ago
Yes, and then traffic will be halted for hours while the incident is investigated.