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> It sounds as if total suppression remains California's official fire-management policy and protocol. no, CalFIRE was excoriated after the 2017 season. The up

> It sounds as if total suppression remains California's official fire-management policy and protocol. no, CalFIRE was excoriated after the 2017 season. The upper management including the Chief were.. uh... "fired" Meanwhile, a Sacramento appointee with some connection to the native population has to sit in committee meetings for the last five years, while very very slow changes are made. The political class in California wants to extract votes at every meeting, so they emphasize "first people" every third sentance. The truth of the situation is clear to many, but the allegiance is bound to institutional goals and ever-scarce funding. Many detailed references available on request

dredmorbius 3y ago
I'd made my comment (which note is based on the NYTimes story, there doesn't seem to be a corresponding observation in the LA Times version, see dang's comment about merging threads) because my understanding was that total suppression was no longer policy. I've commented at length on that before, see: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36233156 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36233156>. There's the possibility that the NY Times got this factoid wrong, though it's precisely the sort of comment I'd expect to be fact-checked prior to publication. Assuming the comment is accurate, it's a current documented statement that strongly suggests (near) total fire suppression along the lines of the US Forest Service's notorious "10 AM policy" (all reported fires should be extinguished completely by 10 AM the following day) remains in effect. I'd much appreciate seeing your further references.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  (I have written you a long response, since I did not make time to write a short one) First to say, the land across California is split in ownership and management between US Federal Agencies in total, the State of California, private companies for commercial use - importantly timber and electrical power, and other uses. Historically the slow-moving majority-owner Federal Forest management emphasized the value of forests as a crop by charter, leading to the now-infamous density and fire-abatement policies lasting well into the 21st century. Things changed quite a lot legally in the aftermath of the 2017 catastrophic wildfire season that wiped out a third of a city, Santa Rosa, just North-East of San Francisco. The 2017 year's wildfire totals were +1.5 million acres. Only later to be exceeded in 2021, including the Dixie Fire "in Butte, Plumas, Lassen, Shasta, and Tehama counties started on July 13, burned a total of 963,309 acres, destroyed 1,329 structures and damaged 95 additional structures." (oddly, part of which was via arson by a CA college Police Criminology professor named Gary Stephen Maynard ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubbs_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubbs_Fire A legal document was drafted and signed, that resolved the cost and authority imbalances between four Federal and State Agencies under Governor Newsom. Next, by order N-05-19 from the Office of the California Governor (among many such orders), State Agencies and stakeholders are required to respond in writing, and on a regular basis, on what is being done. https://wildfiretaskforce.org/ https://wildfiretaskforce.org/ https://energysafety.ca.gov/what-we-do/wildfire-safety-advisory-board/ https://energysafety.ca.gov/what-we-do/wildfire-safety-advis... The political document in effect now from Gov. Newsom / Sacramento is called: california wildfire and forest resilience action plan_2021.pdf There is more to say on the topic of management and liability, but let's move on.. High-tech constantly seeks to sell products to government, but actual progress is sometimes backwards in practice. This time, real advances were made.. for example: https://cloud.google.com/blog/topics/sustainability/how-the-us-forest-service-uses-google-cloud https://cloud.google.com/blog/topics/sustainability/how-the-... Please recall that the largest wildfire in the history of the State of New Mexico, was a controlled burn gone wrong.. very wrong.. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/17/new-mexico-largest-fire/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/17/new-mexico-... https://www.npr.org/2022/05/20/1099625787/new-mexico-wildfire-sparks-backlash-against-controlled-burns-thats-bad-for-the-w https://www.npr.org/2022/05/20/1099625787/new-mexico-wildfir... https://losalamosreporter.com/2022/05/05/rep-leger-fernandez-demands-answers-from-forest-service-agency-regarding-prescribed-burn-that-led-to-wildfire/ https://losalamosreporter.com/2022/05/05/rep-leger-fernandez... The reigning academic heavyweight for Forestry and California Forestry, is Dr Scott Stephens, with well-over 100 publications on the topic. Reading a little more deeply, you might find a man who knows how to navigate between the powers that be, as well as do science. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=nlwR8igAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=nlwR8igAAAAJ&hl=en... Current firefighting policy for public consumption might be found (somewhere) here https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact
  - goatsi 3y ago
    >Current firefighting policy for public consumption might be found (somewhere) here >https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact Right at the top of the page. "CAL FIRE aggressively fights fire, with the goal of keeping 95% of fires contained at 10 acres or less." Seems very clear to me.
    - dredmorbius 3y ago
      Thanks for that, and yes, that would confirm the NYT's account. I appreciate mistrial9's extended remarks, I'm going through their links and references, and again want to emphasize that I understood policy to be OTHER than total containment. Both the NYT's account and CalFire's own policy page ... strongly suggest otherwise. Caveats in my original comment here notwithstanding, I'm disappointed.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  As noted by goatsi downthread, "suppress 95 percent of all fires when they are 10 acres or less" is at the top of CalFire's webpage: <https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact>. The NYT account is confirmed.

dredmorbius 3y ago

I'd made my comment (which note is based on the NYTimes story, there doesn't seem to be a corresponding observation in the LA Times version, see dang's comment about merging threads) because my understanding was that total suppression was no longer policy. I've commented at length on that before, see: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36233156 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36233156>. There's the possibility that the NY Times got this factoid wrong, though it's precisely the sort of comment I'd expect to be fact-checked prior to publication. Assuming the comment is accurate, it's a current documented statement that strongly suggests (near) total fire suppression along the lines of the US Forest Service's notorious "10 AM policy" (all reported fires should be extinguished completely by 10 AM the following day) remains in effect. I'd much appreciate seeing your further references.

mistrial9 3y ago
(I have written you a long response, since I did not make time to write a short one) First to say, the land across California is split in ownership and management between US Federal Agencies in total, the State of California, private companies for commercial use - importantly timber and electrical power, and other uses. Historically the slow-moving majority-owner Federal Forest management emphasized the value of forests as a crop by charter, leading to the now-infamous density and fire-abatement policies lasting well into the 21st century. Things changed quite a lot legally in the aftermath of the 2017 catastrophic wildfire season that wiped out a third of a city, Santa Rosa, just North-East of San Francisco. The 2017 year's wildfire totals were +1.5 million acres. Only later to be exceeded in 2021, including the Dixie Fire "in Butte, Plumas, Lassen, Shasta, and Tehama counties started on July 13, burned a total of 963,309 acres, destroyed 1,329 structures and damaged 95 additional structures." (oddly, part of which was via arson by a CA college Police Criminology professor named Gary Stephen Maynard ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubbs_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubbs_Fire A legal document was drafted and signed, that resolved the cost and authority imbalances between four Federal and State Agencies under Governor Newsom. Next, by order N-05-19 from the Office of the California Governor (among many such orders), State Agencies and stakeholders are required to respond in writing, and on a regular basis, on what is being done. https://wildfiretaskforce.org/ https://wildfiretaskforce.org/ https://energysafety.ca.gov/what-we-do/wildfire-safety-advisory-board/ https://energysafety.ca.gov/what-we-do/wildfire-safety-advis... The political document in effect now from Gov. Newsom / Sacramento is called: california wildfire and forest resilience action plan_2021.pdf There is more to say on the topic of management and liability, but let's move on.. High-tech constantly seeks to sell products to government, but actual progress is sometimes backwards in practice. This time, real advances were made.. for example: https://cloud.google.com/blog/topics/sustainability/how-the-us-forest-service-uses-google-cloud https://cloud.google.com/blog/topics/sustainability/how-the-... Please recall that the largest wildfire in the history of the State of New Mexico, was a controlled burn gone wrong.. very wrong.. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/17/new-mexico-largest-fire/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/17/new-mexico-... https://www.npr.org/2022/05/20/1099625787/new-mexico-wildfire-sparks-backlash-against-controlled-burns-thats-bad-for-the-w https://www.npr.org/2022/05/20/1099625787/new-mexico-wildfir... https://losalamosreporter.com/2022/05/05/rep-leger-fernandez-demands-answers-from-forest-service-agency-regarding-prescribed-burn-that-led-to-wildfire/ https://losalamosreporter.com/2022/05/05/rep-leger-fernandez... The reigning academic heavyweight for Forestry and California Forestry, is Dr Scott Stephens, with well-over 100 publications on the topic. Reading a little more deeply, you might find a man who knows how to navigate between the powers that be, as well as do science. https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=nlwR8igAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sra https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=nlwR8igAAAAJ&hl=en... Current firefighting policy for public consumption might be found (somewhere) here https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact
- goatsi 3y ago
  >Current firefighting policy for public consumption might be found (somewhere) here >https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact Right at the top of the page. "CAL FIRE aggressively fights fire, with the goal of keeping 95% of fires contained at 10 acres or less." Seems very clear to me.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Thanks for that, and yes, that would confirm the NYT's account. I appreciate mistrial9's extended remarks, I'm going through their links and references, and again want to emphasize that I understood policy to be OTHER than total containment. Both the NYT's account and CalFire's own policy page ... strongly suggest otherwise. Caveats in my original comment here notwithstanding, I'm disappointed.
dredmorbius 3y ago
As noted by goatsi downthread, "suppress 95 percent of all fires when they are 10 acres or less" is at the top of CalFire's webpage: <https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact https://www.fire.ca.gov/our-impact>. The NYT account is confirmed.