7 ms·

Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public

16 points by SenAnder 3y ago

SenAnder 3y ago
The free speech situation in Denmark is worse than the title implies, and not limited to Islam or religion - "The ban is expected to be added to a section of the criminal code that bans public insult of a foreign state, its flag or other symbol." The existing punishment is up to 2 tears jail time, if Breitbart can be trusted - https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/08/25/blasphemy-laws-are-back-denmark-prepares-to-ban-quran-burnings/ https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/08/25/blasphemy-laws-a... And if the Daily Mail is to be believed, the upcoming ban is much broader and vaguer than just Quran burnings: "Justice Minister Peter Hummelgaard told reporters that the government will present a bill that will 'prohibit the inappropriate treatment of objects of significant religious importance to a religious community'" - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12445021/Denmark-ban-burning-Koran-string-desecrations-country-sparked-anger-Muslim-nations.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12445021/Denmark-ba...
- progbits 3y ago
  Would that cover Muhammad caricatures?
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  What your comment is missing is the current political context in Europe: we currently have far right accelerationists that are purposely trying to create outrage among Muslim, both locally and abroad, hoping that it will cause terror attacks against their country, pushing their agenda further. It has nothing to do with free speach, it's just strategia della tensione modernized to the 21th century, and I'm glad politicians are falling for the “but free speech” trap. These people give no shit about freedom of speech, they are playing with fire in order to reach power, and they'll censor all opposition as soon as they reach it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension
  - foooorsyth 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      I'd live with cowardice easier than with fascism, as most Europeans who have been there already. Thanks but no thanks.
      - foooorsyth 3y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 3y ago
        Yikes - your account has been breaking the site guidelines frequently and egregiously. We have to ban accounts that post like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37255503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37255503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37255349 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37255349 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37048597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37048597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37047131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37047131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37047027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37047027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37046921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37046921 I actually banned your account just now, but changed my mind because when I scrolled through your comment history I also saw quite a few decent comments. But if you don't want to be banned, we need you to make a hard stop on breaking the site guidelines. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
      - dang 3y ago
        Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN and please don't use HN for political or ideological battle. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dotcoma 3y ago
To fight climate change, I hope.
tomohawk 3y ago
Burning something is not speech. It is an expression, yes, but a destructive and demeaning one. It's time to move on from thinking that burning things needs government protection. We've run the experiment and no public good has resulted. If you don't like the book, then use your words.
- eesmith 3y ago
  "Speech" is not limited to vocal communication, which is why a book is a form of protected speech, and flipping someone off is a form of protected speech, and yes, burning a flag or a book may also be a form of protected speech. Your blanket statement "Burning something is destructive and demeaning [expression]" is clearly wrong. Consider Zozobra ("Old Man Gloom"), an effigy burned during the annual Fiestas de Santa Fe in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Quoting the Wikipedia entry at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zozobra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zozobra : > As its name suggests, it embodies gloom and anxiety; by burning it, people destroy the worries and troubles of the previous year in the flames. Anyone with an excess of gloom is encouraged to write down the nature of their gloom on a slip of paper and leave it in the "gloom box" found in City of Santa Fe Visitors' Centers in the weeks leading up to the burn. Participants can also add documents on the day of the burning, up until 8 pm MT, at a "gloom tent" in the venue where they can add to the marionette's stuffing. Legal papers, divorce documents, mortgage pay-offs, parking tickets and even a wedding dress –– all have found their way into Zozobra to go up in smoke. At the festival, glooms from the gloom box are placed at Zozobra's feet to be burned alongside it. Burning in this case is destructive, yes, and a form of emotional relief. There's also police present, to ensure the burning goes well, and people leave in high spirits. That burning has been around for over 50 years, with a lot of public good. Or, consider this example from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning#Sikh_book_burning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning#Sikh_book_burning : > Sikh religion, any copies of their sacred book, Guru Granth Sahib, which are too badly damaged to be used, and any printer's waste which bears any of its text, are cremated. This ritual is called an Agan Bhet, and it is similar to the ritual which is performed when a deceased Sikh is cremated Do you really want to argue that's demeaning, and that no public good has come from it? As I pointed out at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31185643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31185643 , book burnings are pretty common in the US. I quoted one source that during the 1980s and 1990s, "church youth groups coordinated book burnings and music bonfires to purge their world of evil art." https://religionnews.com/2020/06/17/evangelicals-perfected-cancel-culture-now-its-coming-for-them/ https://religionnews.com/2020/06/17/evangelicals-perfected-c... This was constitutionally protected free speech in service of their constitutionally protected religious beliefs. And you want to make it so the police couldn't protect them when exercising their rights?
RGamma 3y ago
If you take to the streets because some rando far away burned your favorite fantasy book, there's something really wrong with you. No wonder people in western democracies dislike the idea of Islam spreading there if its followers include such unenlightened, aggressive snowflakes (not everyone yadda yadda).
- churchill 3y ago
  This is why I always laugh when western progressives attack any criticism of Islam as Islamophobia. Like, really? Try living in Nigeria, Indonesia, or any other Muslim-majority country where being accused of cursing Mohammed can get you stoned and burned on the streets and then come back and preach to me about the religion of peace. Just last year, a young Nigerian Christian girl was stoned to death and burned BY HER MUSLIM CLASSMATES who accused her of insulting Mohammed. If you think people who think like this have a place in civil society, I don't even know what to tell you.
rich_sasha 3y ago
I don't understand why people are so protective of the "right" to burn Quran or to publish rude cartoons of prophet Mohammed. Free speech is important and we should protect the right to criticize things and to debate, but burning books is not that. It's childish, offensive and seriously carries no informational content other than "fuck you". Especially in an age it's almost rude to not put your pronouns in email signature. It's important to be nice and considerate to trans people, but OK to shit on 1.8bn people? I have nothing in common with Muslims / Arabs otherwise.
- bradley13 3y ago
  Say what? I know zero, none, no people who put their pronouns in their signature. Given that I work with college students, I'm not exactly sheltered. You live in a weird, woke bubble. Which is probably why you don't see the need to allow disrespecting symbols. That is a classic means of protest, whether it's a flag, a picture, a book, or something else. It is meant to get attention, and yet harms no one.
  - rich_sasha 3y ago
    Ha, you know so much about me. But disrespecting peoples closely held beliefs is just unnecessary. Reasonable people can disagree, about anything really, and anything can be said, politely. Portraying prophet Mohammed as a terrorist, or burning books, is just hate speech. The latter is literally what the Nazis did. Criticize whoever you want, with respect. Not this nonsense.
    - mrkeen 3y ago
      > disrespecting peoples closely held beliefs is just unnecessary. How dare you call them 'beliefs'? Are you implying that they're not facts? You're telling every Muslim on the planet that they're subscribing to fairy tales. Hyperbole aside, I don't want my tax money going towards paying police to break up 'unnecessary' demonstrations.
  - jmye 3y ago
    > I know zero, none, no people who put their pronouns in their signature. Given that I work with college students, I'm not exactly sheltered. You live in a weird, woke bubble. Roughly 50% of the tech folks I interact with (at minor companies like Salesforce and Amazon) list them. But tell me more about my “weird” “woke” (as if you can define the word) bubble. Because of course it’s not that you live in a bubble. You’re the main character. Or whatever. I’m so tired of this pervasive, self-important bullshit. Grow up.
crop_rotation 3y ago
Would Denmark ban offensive speech/act against other religions too? If not, this just means your religion will be respected only if you act vigilantly against people disrespecting it.
sillywalk 3y ago
On the one hand it's an asshole thing to do just for a deliberate provocation. On the other hand, deal with it.
jostiniane 3y ago
[flagged]
jostiniane 3y ago
[flagged]

16 points by SenAnder 3y ago

The free speech situation in Denmark is worse than the title implies, and not limited to Islam or religion - "The ban is expected to be added to a section of the criminal code that bans public insult of a foreign state, its flag or other symbol." The existing punishment is up to 2 tears jail time, if Breitbart can be trusted - https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/08/25/blasphemy-laws-are-back-denmark-prepares-to-ban-quran-burnings/ https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/08/25/blasphemy-laws-a... And if the Daily Mail is to be believed, the upcoming ban is much broader and vaguer than just Quran burnings: "Justice Minister Peter Hummelgaard told reporters that the government will present a bill that will 'prohibit the inappropriate treatment of objects of significant religious importance to a religious community'" - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12445021/Denmark-ban-burning-Koran-string-desecrations-country-sparked-anger-Muslim-nations.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12445021/Denmark-ba...

progbits 3y ago
Would that cover Muhammad caricatures?
littlestymaar 3y ago
What your comment is missing is the current political context in Europe: we currently have far right accelerationists that are purposely trying to create outrage among Muslim, both locally and abroad, hoping that it will cause terror attacks against their country, pushing their agenda further. It has nothing to do with free speach, it's just strategia della tensione modernized to the 21th century, and I'm glad politicians are falling for the “but free speech” trap. These people give no shit about freedom of speech, they are playing with fire in order to reach power, and they'll censor all opposition as soon as they reach it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension
- foooorsyth 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    I'd live with cowardice easier than with fascism, as most Europeans who have been there already. Thanks but no thanks.
    - foooorsyth 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - dang 3y ago
        Yikes - your account has been breaking the site guidelines frequently and egregiously. We have to ban accounts that post like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37255503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37255503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37255349 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37255349 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37048597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37048597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37047131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37047131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37047027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37047027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37046921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37046921 I actually banned your account just now, but changed my mind because when I scrolled through your comment history I also saw quite a few decent comments. But if you don't want to be banned, we need you to make a hard stop on breaking the site guidelines. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
    - dang 3y ago
      Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN and please don't use HN for political or ideological battle. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dotcoma 3y ago

To fight climate change, I hope.

tomohawk 3y ago

Burning something is not speech. It is an expression, yes, but a destructive and demeaning one. It's time to move on from thinking that burning things needs government protection. We've run the experiment and no public good has resulted. If you don't like the book, then use your words.

eesmith 3y ago
"Speech" is not limited to vocal communication, which is why a book is a form of protected speech, and flipping someone off is a form of protected speech, and yes, burning a flag or a book may also be a form of protected speech. Your blanket statement "Burning something is destructive and demeaning [expression]" is clearly wrong. Consider Zozobra ("Old Man Gloom"), an effigy burned during the annual Fiestas de Santa Fe in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Quoting the Wikipedia entry at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zozobra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zozobra : > As its name suggests, it embodies gloom and anxiety; by burning it, people destroy the worries and troubles of the previous year in the flames. Anyone with an excess of gloom is encouraged to write down the nature of their gloom on a slip of paper and leave it in the "gloom box" found in City of Santa Fe Visitors' Centers in the weeks leading up to the burn. Participants can also add documents on the day of the burning, up until 8 pm MT, at a "gloom tent" in the venue where they can add to the marionette's stuffing. Legal papers, divorce documents, mortgage pay-offs, parking tickets and even a wedding dress –– all have found their way into Zozobra to go up in smoke. At the festival, glooms from the gloom box are placed at Zozobra's feet to be burned alongside it. Burning in this case is destructive, yes, and a form of emotional relief. There's also police present, to ensure the burning goes well, and people leave in high spirits. That burning has been around for over 50 years, with a lot of public good. Or, consider this example from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning#Sikh_book_burning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning#Sikh_book_burning : > Sikh religion, any copies of their sacred book, Guru Granth Sahib, which are too badly damaged to be used, and any printer's waste which bears any of its text, are cremated. This ritual is called an Agan Bhet, and it is similar to the ritual which is performed when a deceased Sikh is cremated Do you really want to argue that's demeaning, and that no public good has come from it? As I pointed out at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31185643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31185643 , book burnings are pretty common in the US. I quoted one source that during the 1980s and 1990s, "church youth groups coordinated book burnings and music bonfires to purge their world of evil art." https://religionnews.com/2020/06/17/evangelicals-perfected-cancel-culture-now-its-coming-for-them/ https://religionnews.com/2020/06/17/evangelicals-perfected-c... This was constitutionally protected free speech in service of their constitutionally protected religious beliefs. And you want to make it so the police couldn't protect them when exercising their rights?

RGamma 3y ago

If you take to the streets because some rando far away burned your favorite fantasy book, there's something really wrong with you. No wonder people in western democracies dislike the idea of Islam spreading there if its followers include such unenlightened, aggressive snowflakes (not everyone yadda yadda).

churchill 3y ago
This is why I always laugh when western progressives attack any criticism of Islam as Islamophobia. Like, really? Try living in Nigeria, Indonesia, or any other Muslim-majority country where being accused of cursing Mohammed can get you stoned and burned on the streets and then come back and preach to me about the religion of peace. Just last year, a young Nigerian Christian girl was stoned to death and burned BY HER MUSLIM CLASSMATES who accused her of insulting Mohammed. If you think people who think like this have a place in civil society, I don't even know what to tell you.

rich_sasha 3y ago

I don't understand why people are so protective of the "right" to burn Quran or to publish rude cartoons of prophet Mohammed. Free speech is important and we should protect the right to criticize things and to debate, but burning books is not that. It's childish, offensive and seriously carries no informational content other than "fuck you". Especially in an age it's almost rude to not put your pronouns in email signature. It's important to be nice and considerate to trans people, but OK to shit on 1.8bn people? I have nothing in common with Muslims / Arabs otherwise.

bradley13 3y ago
Say what? I know zero, none, no people who put their pronouns in their signature. Given that I work with college students, I'm not exactly sheltered. You live in a weird, woke bubble. Which is probably why you don't see the need to allow disrespecting symbols. That is a classic means of protest, whether it's a flag, a picture, a book, or something else. It is meant to get attention, and yet harms no one.
- rich_sasha 3y ago
  Ha, you know so much about me. But disrespecting peoples closely held beliefs is just unnecessary. Reasonable people can disagree, about anything really, and anything can be said, politely. Portraying prophet Mohammed as a terrorist, or burning books, is just hate speech. The latter is literally what the Nazis did. Criticize whoever you want, with respect. Not this nonsense.
  - mrkeen 3y ago
    > disrespecting peoples closely held beliefs is just unnecessary. How dare you call them 'beliefs'? Are you implying that they're not facts? You're telling every Muslim on the planet that they're subscribing to fairy tales. Hyperbole aside, I don't want my tax money going towards paying police to break up 'unnecessary' demonstrations.
- jmye 3y ago
  > I know zero, none, no people who put their pronouns in their signature. Given that I work with college students, I'm not exactly sheltered. You live in a weird, woke bubble. Roughly 50% of the tech folks I interact with (at minor companies like Salesforce and Amazon) list them. But tell me more about my “weird” “woke” (as if you can define the word) bubble. Because of course it’s not that you live in a bubble. You’re the main character. Or whatever. I’m so tired of this pervasive, self-important bullshit. Grow up.

crop_rotation 3y ago

Would Denmark ban offensive speech/act against other religions too? If not, this just means your religion will be respected only if you act vigilantly against people disrespecting it.

sillywalk 3y ago

On the one hand it's an asshole thing to do just for a deliberate provocation. On the other hand, deal with it.

jostiniane 3y ago

[flagged]

jostiniane 3y ago

[flagged]