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> First it talks about Valve's "issues with diversity" without establishing a clear link between the flat structure and that. It quotes some professor who says

> First it talks about Valve's "issues with diversity" without establishing a clear link between the flat structure and that. It quotes some professor who says it's related because “you’ve still got middle-aged, privileged white men making decisions at the top” due to a lack of safeguards. > Then the article tries to apply guilt by association, by basically saying "Theranos was bad, so flat structures are bad". It quotes another professor who says that the lack of structure is what allowed theranos to avoid having controls that would catch things. > It also implies a company being diverse is a mandatory thing, and non-diverse firms are somehow inherently bad or non-desirable. Not so much implies as takes as a given, I think. That's been pushed hard for several years now, to the point I often see it treated as axiomatic.

Pannoniae 3y ago
> It quotes some professor who says it's related because “you’ve still got middle-aged, privileged white men making decisions at the top” due to a lack of safeguards. Sure, but that's not sound logic. It doesn't actually prove it, it just tries to extrapolate bad behaviour from race and gender (which is what racism and sexism is) > It quotes another professor who says that the lack of structure is what allowed theranos to avoid having controls that would catch things. How is that exclusive to flat organisations? This logic can be used almost verbatim to hierarchical organisations as well - a strong hierarchy is what allowed Company X to avoid having controls that would catch things. (Because no one dared to say anything to the leadership) > Not so much implies as takes as a given, I think. That's been pushed hard for several years now, to the point I often see it treated as axiomatic. This is either propaganda or plain misinformation. I don't accept it in any way, it's definitely not an axiom.
- tbrownaw 3y ago
  It's a news article, not a research paper. It's kind of expected that they'd find (friendly) experts to rely on for appeal-to-authority and not be picky about questioning "common knowledge" (that the article isn't specifically written to question). It doesn't seem particularly worse than I'd expect a minor news article to be. Also, have you heard of the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect?
  - Pannoniae 3y ago
    Just because you don't expect them to do any better, that doesn't mean this is not just plain propaganda. The correct response to propaganda is not accepting it or saying "well it's expected from them" but to challenge it.
  - davorak 3y ago
    > It's a news article, not a research paper. It's kind of expected that they'd find (friendly) experts to rely on for appeal-to-authority and not be picky about questioning "common knowledge" (that the article isn't specifically written to question). In this case I think they could have done a better job providing the context and reasoning of the experts. That would not change the point of the article and hopefully give readers an idea, not all of the details, of why the quote experts think what they think. As it is I do no think I can use the article to change my point of view, even incrementally, or better understand what and why others are thinking on the topic.
davorak 3y ago
There are quotes from external sources offered as evidence, but they do not stand by themselves or help support the article other than reference an external source. They do not show that flat organization results in the bad outcomes they mention, only show it is possible and has happened, but that is also true for non flat organizations too. The external sources may stand well by themselves I can not tell from these quotes. > It quotes some professor who says it's related because “you’ve still got middle-aged, privileged white men making decisions at the top” due to a lack of safeguards. This does not seem to depend on whether or not you have a flat structure or not. The article also includes: > The companies may reflect the same biases as society, without safeguards to avoid them. which is as close to a justification as the article comes to, which does not seem to apply more to flat organizations than not. >> Then the article tries to apply guilt by association, by basically saying "Theranos was bad, so flat structures are bad". > It quotes another professor who says that the lack of structure is what allowed theranos to avoid having controls that would catch things. The quote from the article is: > “meant that these companies don’t have to do the difficult and tedious process of putting into place all the systems and controls you would normally find.” This is not particular to an organization being flat though. Flat does not me you do not have systems or and controls. If there is the a definition that makes it so I have not seen it used in the article or elsewhere. There are trade offs between flat and non flat organizations, but I would not recommend this article form someone looking to read up on the topic.
- tbrownaw 3y ago
  « The article also includes: > The companies may reflect the same biases as society, without safeguards to avoid them. which is as close to a justification as the article comes to, which does not seem to apply more to flat organizations than not. » There's been a fair bit of noise about needing HR departments in order to enforce safeguards (which depending on who you ask will look like standardized interview processes or quotas or whatever). That's hierarchy and structure. « Flat does not me you do not have systems or and controls. » Something that's nominally flat may not actually be flat in practice, yes. That's actually the main idea presented in "The Tyranny of Structurelessness".
  - 3y ago
shin_lao 3y ago
A quote from a professor isn't evidence.
adolph 3y ago
> It quotes some professor who says it's related because “you’ve still got middle-aged, privileged white men making decisions at the top” due to a lack of safeguards. Said professor looking very pale and mature is a lifelong academic bureaucrat who would love to sell you an online MDA about the topic. With over 30 years’ experience as an academic, Cliff has held positions at Queen Mary University of London, University of Leicester, King’s College, University of London, and Westminster University. He has also worked as an HR manager in local government. Cliff’s research interests include the application of aspects of discourse, dramaturgy, tropes, narrative, and rhetoric to the study of organisations and organising. https://online.bayes.city.ac.uk/courses/global-mba/teaching-team/view,professor-clifford-oswick-module-leader_74.htm https://online.bayes.city.ac.uk/courses/global-mba/teaching-...

Pannoniae 3y ago

> It quotes some professor who says it's related because “you’ve still got middle-aged, privileged white men making decisions at the top” due to a lack of safeguards. Sure, but that's not sound logic. It doesn't actually prove it, it just tries to extrapolate bad behaviour from race and gender (which is what racism and sexism is) > It quotes another professor who says that the lack of structure is what allowed theranos to avoid having controls that would catch things. How is that exclusive to flat organisations? This logic can be used almost verbatim to hierarchical organisations as well - a strong hierarchy is what allowed Company X to avoid having controls that would catch things. (Because no one dared to say anything to the leadership) > Not so much implies as takes as a given, I think. That's been pushed hard for several years now, to the point I often see it treated as axiomatic. This is either propaganda or plain misinformation. I don't accept it in any way, it's definitely not an axiom.

tbrownaw 3y ago
It's a news article, not a research paper. It's kind of expected that they'd find (friendly) experts to rely on for appeal-to-authority and not be picky about questioning "common knowledge" (that the article isn't specifically written to question). It doesn't seem particularly worse than I'd expect a minor news article to be. Also, have you heard of the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect?
- Pannoniae 3y ago
  Just because you don't expect them to do any better, that doesn't mean this is not just plain propaganda. The correct response to propaganda is not accepting it or saying "well it's expected from them" but to challenge it.
- davorak 3y ago
  > It's a news article, not a research paper. It's kind of expected that they'd find (friendly) experts to rely on for appeal-to-authority and not be picky about questioning "common knowledge" (that the article isn't specifically written to question). In this case I think they could have done a better job providing the context and reasoning of the experts. That would not change the point of the article and hopefully give readers an idea, not all of the details, of why the quote experts think what they think. As it is I do no think I can use the article to change my point of view, even incrementally, or better understand what and why others are thinking on the topic.

davorak 3y ago

There are quotes from external sources offered as evidence, but they do not stand by themselves or help support the article other than reference an external source. They do not show that flat organization results in the bad outcomes they mention, only show it is possible and has happened, but that is also true for non flat organizations too. The external sources may stand well by themselves I can not tell from these quotes. > It quotes some professor who says it's related because “you’ve still got middle-aged, privileged white men making decisions at the top” due to a lack of safeguards. This does not seem to depend on whether or not you have a flat structure or not. The article also includes: > The companies may reflect the same biases as society, without safeguards to avoid them. which is as close to a justification as the article comes to, which does not seem to apply more to flat organizations than not. >> Then the article tries to apply guilt by association, by basically saying "Theranos was bad, so flat structures are bad". > It quotes another professor who says that the lack of structure is what allowed theranos to avoid having controls that would catch things. The quote from the article is: > “meant that these companies don’t have to do the difficult and tedious process of putting into place all the systems and controls you would normally find.” This is not particular to an organization being flat though. Flat does not me you do not have systems or and controls. If there is the a definition that makes it so I have not seen it used in the article or elsewhere. There are trade offs between flat and non flat organizations, but I would not recommend this article form someone looking to read up on the topic.

tbrownaw 3y ago
« The article also includes: > The companies may reflect the same biases as society, without safeguards to avoid them. which is as close to a justification as the article comes to, which does not seem to apply more to flat organizations than not. » There's been a fair bit of noise about needing HR departments in order to enforce safeguards (which depending on who you ask will look like standardized interview processes or quotas or whatever). That's hierarchy and structure. « Flat does not me you do not have systems or and controls. » Something that's nominally flat may not actually be flat in practice, yes. That's actually the main idea presented in "The Tyranny of Structurelessness".
- 3y ago

shin_lao 3y ago

A quote from a professor isn't evidence.

adolph 3y ago

> It quotes some professor who says it's related because “you’ve still got middle-aged, privileged white men making decisions at the top” due to a lack of safeguards. Said professor looking very pale and mature is a lifelong academic bureaucrat who would love to sell you an online MDA about the topic. With over 30 years’ experience as an academic, Cliff has held positions at Queen Mary University of London, University of Leicester, King’s College, University of London, and Westminster University. He has also worked as an HR manager in local government. Cliff’s research interests include the application of aspects of discourse, dramaturgy, tropes, narrative, and rhetoric to the study of organisations and organising. https://online.bayes.city.ac.uk/courses/global-mba/teaching-team/view,professor-clifford-oswick-module-leader_74.htm https://online.bayes.city.ac.uk/courses/global-mba/teaching-...