8 ms·

I think the whole question Tablet vs Computer is pretty dumb in the first place. It's not a versus, it's a peaceful cohabitation, only some evangelist and/or jo

I think the whole question Tablet vs Computer is pretty dumb in the first place. It's not a versus, it's a peaceful cohabitation, only some evangelist and/or journalists want to push us to believe there's a war but that's really not true. Tablet and PC simply correspond to two totally different use of media. A tablet is consumption centered whereas the PC is able to produce complex goods and services than then can be consumed by a tablet. Will the tablet push away PC usage to very low level in some areas? Probably! Will it replace a PC for every usage ? Are you kidding me: Development, 3D Effect, Advanced Audio Processing, Advanced Photo processing. That's just as stupid as saying that photoshop is dead because Instagram can do sepia... PS: I will absolutely never buy a tablet, I fight every day to stay on the creator side of society, with a tablet I would just give up!

prsimp 15y ago
It's not impossible to remain a creator while using an iPad (or other tablet) - at least not when it comes to development. There are certainly people who are happily developing on an iPad (albeit with a more powerful remote backend)[1]. I think we are likely to see even more of a shift in this direction as these devices become even more capable. [1] http://yieldthought.com/post/12239282034/swapped-my-macbook-for-an-ipad http://yieldthought.com/post/12239282034/swapped-my-macbook-...
- victork2 15y ago
  Ok, granted, it seems to work but when you look at the configuration: iPad 2 (16Gb, WiFi) Apple wireless keyboard Stilgut adjustable angle stand/case iSSH Linode 512 running Ubuntu 11.04 Apple VGA adapter This is basically the same configuration as an iMac! I'll take an example, most of the programmers I know when doing some serious coding have 2+ monitors because it's always good to run on the side, get the result live. Or just because you need to compare two files. On such a small screen, it's close to impossible. Also for a programmer a lot of the wasted time is browsing through long files, with an ipad and, again, a small screen = nightmare.
- jiggy2011 15y ago
  To be fair , that one article is the only evidence I have seen thus far of anybody using an iPad as their primary development machine. Wonder how he is getting on with it?
- dinkumthinkum 15y ago
  This is just not really that serious. There is not going to be widespread adoption of serious programmers doing this in anger. I promise. It's not going to happen. It's fitting a square peg in a round hole. This attitude wants me to have this overly complicated setup to have a really horrible version of what I can do swimmingly well with a little Thinkpad or whatever notebook you like. Done and done. No nonsense.
- dinkumthinkum 15y ago
  This is just not really that serious. There is not going to be widespread adoption of serious programmers doing this in anger. I promise. It's not going to happen. It's fitting a square peg in a round hole. This attitude wants me to have this overly complicated setup to have a really horrible version of what I can do swimmingly well with a little Thinkpad or whatever notebook you like. Done and done. No nonsense.
julian37 15y ago
It's not a versus, it's a peaceful cohabitation, only some evangelist and/or journalists want to push us to believe there's a war but that's really not true. I wouldn't call it a war, but Atwood (who, by the way, is neither an evangelist nor a journalist with an agenda) makes the point that tablets are about to take over large shares of the PC market. And my point was that this way, people (non-hackers) get even further removed from the "close to the metal" experience that I and others in my generation used to have. With all respect, I think you and dozens of other posters in this thread are missing the point by "defending" the notebook and saying it won't get fully replaced. Of course it won't, but that's not an interesting question. The interesting question, in my mind, is: how can we avoid the TV-ization of computing? How can we make sure future generations don't equate a computer with a consumption device rather than a productive device? How can we make sure they can find out that this "magical device" isn't actually driven by fairy dust? Whether or not some share of the population uses notebooks, when the default for the millions and billions of non-hackers out there is to use a tablet, doesn't matter very much at that point. Fortunately there are initiatives like the Raspberry Pi. It's telling that one of the main initiators of that project, David Braben, is also an old-school guy who grew up with computers in the 80s. Or so I'm guessing -- at any rate, he wrote some of my favorite 80s games, Elite and later Frontier. But I fear that if you plot the Raspberry's sales curve into Atwood's graph it won't look anything like the iPad.
- jiggy2011 15y ago
  Well things will need to be produced somehow, I imagine this will still be done with some form of computer. Whether or not you keep the keyboard has little to do with the "freedom" of the device. The question is what the difference will be between the consumption devices and the production devices. Whether the devices for creating content become specialized pieces of equipment priced out of reach of the general market and you get to touch one for the first time when you turn 18 and start your computer science course or perhaps with increasing viability of virtual machines you simply download a program that gives you all of your power tools but inside a sandbox so if you mess it up you can just re-image and go again. There will also be as you suggested "hacker hardware" like the Raspberry Pi, I think the key for these is to make sure the costs are low and that they are available to kids in school. The "hacker spirit" can overcome many obstacles. Hell in the 70s nobody had a computer at home and the original hackers used to break the law by breaking into companies computer systems via telephone lines just to play around with them.
benevpayor 15y ago
I hope the barrier to entry to be a producer will stay as low as it is now. I worry that as PC demand goes down, the cost to get started in programming will go up. I started to learn how to code web sites while procrastinating one afternoon during finals week; I discovered Apache on my macbook. The barrier to entry was almost accidental, because I had all this great stuff on my computer waiting for me to discover it. Those experiences will be more rare in the post-PC erra.
- victork2 15y ago
  Funny you mention that, but in a world totally dominated by iPads the price to just have your application being available by legal means is 99$. When I began to code(around 12-15) 99$ was WAY above anything I could imagine. I don't know if my parents would have allowed me to spend such a sum. Hopefully you can get started and publish for Android for free! So, who knows what the future holds for the cost of content creation... Again people often ignore the long-term externalities they produce when they make their choices, buying a PC or a tablet being one of these choices.
  - wikyd 15y ago
    Are they ignoring the "long-term externalities" or is it just impossible to actually know what they are? Or maybe they just disagree and are putting their money where their mouth is. To even expect a non-programmer to consider this issue strikes me as pretty crazy. I bought an iPad and I don't think that it's going to affect distribution of software in any meaningful way, besides making it easier for developers to reach users through the app store. For one, anyone can deploy an app to Heroku for free. You can host plain html, css, and js for free. You can learn how to program an iOS device for free with tons of great guides and materials online. When you want to distribute it, there is a hurdle to clear, but (and this might be a cultural thing), $100 as a 12-15 year old is not such a wild sum. It also makes my experience browsing the app store better.
  - ghshephard 15y ago
    Xcode is free (as in beer): https://developer.apple.com/xcode/index.php https://developer.apple.com/xcode/index.php You only need to register in the iOS Developer Program if you plan on distributing your apps in the App Store.
mattbriggs 15y ago
the iPad is a _great_ couch, porch, or kitchen computer. Just because you buy one doesn't mean it needs to replace everything else :)
nahname 15y ago
I don't think the point is that the market will shift all to tablets. It is more that, given an upbringing within a "consumer" household. The individuals there will have little opportunity to experience and gain familiarity with, something that can produce. You and I will continue to use PCs, our kids and our friends will likely be using tablets more and more.
andrewfelix 15y ago
>Will it replace a PC for every usage ? Are you kidding me: Development, 3D Effect, Advanced Audio Processing, Advanced Photo processing... No. But for a large proportion of the PC Market this doesn't apply. They only ever used their PC for email, youtube, email etc. So for what is probably a majority of PC users (ie. Not you, me or most HN readers) this is 'Tablet vs Computer'. To call the argument 'dumb' is dumb. Make your point without attempting to dismiss the argument in such a cheap manner.
shahar2k 15y ago
the idea of the general purpose mechanical vehicle died a long time ago, the idea of the all purpose computing device should also. while these ARE general purpose machines as far as their internals go, even with pcs and laptops different tools are required to perform different tasks. Artists use wacom pads and cintiqs to "create" audio experts use mixing boards and MIDI instruments, 3d artists use even more specialized tools (this is my proffession so I happen to know more about it than the others) a lot of what is happening with tablet computers is that the keyboard/mouse combination, once a first class input device used by coders and office employees is becoming a peripheral just like all the others I have been talking about.
- bergie 15y ago
  Great comparison. If you look at things like Garageband on the iPad, you can certainly make music with the touchscreen only. But any musician would probably still be more productive when using the real instrument as the input device. Same with office work: yes, you can write on the virtual keyboard, but can still attach a physical one if you want
ekianjo 15y ago
Agree with your point overall, but if you look at it this way, there were lots of people who were, before, using a computer just as a "consumer" of media, internet, music, information, etc... they had to get a PC because there was nothing else to replace that tool. Now, for THESE people, a tablet makes more sense: it fits their needs. So the conversion we may be seeing right now is around those who were simple consumers in the first place. Creators who need to consume and to create will of course prefer to have a desktop, a laptop on top of a tablet. And there may not be much evolution on the desktop or laptop side because there is no such need to be: the desktop environment has had dozens of year to evolve, its concepts are solid for its intended usages.
netcan 15y ago
The question is what makes the thing a tablet or a PC for the purpose of what we're discussing. We can probably all agree on the point that a thing with a bigger screen and a keyboard will always be a big part of the mix. But, something could fit that description while being more similar to a tablet. I think that's the point Atwood is making.
Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
The thing we need to look at different is that there are types of creator. Damon Albarn recorded a massive chunk of one of the Gorillaz albums on an iPad, David Hockney sketches on one. There are ways in which tablets have massive creative potential. The interface for instance allows a very direct interaction for some mediums and when you look at something like Garageband it has a very shallow learning curve (and price point) which will potentially pull a lot of people in who would have never have looked at that sort of thing on a desktop or laptop. I think it's important to differentiate between the things that allows developers to be creative and the things that allow others to be so. To say I'm on the side of the creator and am anti-tablets is to subscribe to a very fixed and narrow definition of what enables creativity.
danssig 15y ago
>It's not a versus, it's a peaceful cohabitation, only some evangelist and/or journalists want to push us to believe there's a war but that's really not true. The issue is; lots of people who never should have had desktops had to get them because there was no other option. It's not that the Desktop market will die or go away, it's simply that it will contract to what it should have been all along: a very small home market and a large business one.

prsimp 15y ago

It's not impossible to remain a creator while using an iPad (or other tablet) - at least not when it comes to development. There are certainly people who are happily developing on an iPad (albeit with a more powerful remote backend)[1]. I think we are likely to see even more of a shift in this direction as these devices become even more capable. [1] http://yieldthought.com/post/12239282034/swapped-my-macbook-for-an-ipad http://yieldthought.com/post/12239282034/swapped-my-macbook-...

victork2 15y ago
Ok, granted, it seems to work but when you look at the configuration: iPad 2 (16Gb, WiFi) Apple wireless keyboard Stilgut adjustable angle stand/case iSSH Linode 512 running Ubuntu 11.04 Apple VGA adapter This is basically the same configuration as an iMac! I'll take an example, most of the programmers I know when doing some serious coding have 2+ monitors because it's always good to run on the side, get the result live. Or just because you need to compare two files. On such a small screen, it's close to impossible. Also for a programmer a lot of the wasted time is browsing through long files, with an ipad and, again, a small screen = nightmare.
jiggy2011 15y ago
To be fair , that one article is the only evidence I have seen thus far of anybody using an iPad as their primary development machine. Wonder how he is getting on with it?
dinkumthinkum 15y ago
This is just not really that serious. There is not going to be widespread adoption of serious programmers doing this in anger. I promise. It's not going to happen. It's fitting a square peg in a round hole. This attitude wants me to have this overly complicated setup to have a really horrible version of what I can do swimmingly well with a little Thinkpad or whatever notebook you like. Done and done. No nonsense.
dinkumthinkum 15y ago
This is just not really that serious. There is not going to be widespread adoption of serious programmers doing this in anger. I promise. It's not going to happen. It's fitting a square peg in a round hole. This attitude wants me to have this overly complicated setup to have a really horrible version of what I can do swimmingly well with a little Thinkpad or whatever notebook you like. Done and done. No nonsense.

julian37 15y ago

It's not a versus, it's a peaceful cohabitation, only some evangelist and/or journalists want to push us to believe there's a war but that's really not true. I wouldn't call it a war, but Atwood (who, by the way, is neither an evangelist nor a journalist with an agenda) makes the point that tablets are about to take over large shares of the PC market. And my point was that this way, people (non-hackers) get even further removed from the "close to the metal" experience that I and others in my generation used to have. With all respect, I think you and dozens of other posters in this thread are missing the point by "defending" the notebook and saying it won't get fully replaced. Of course it won't, but that's not an interesting question. The interesting question, in my mind, is: how can we avoid the TV-ization of computing? How can we make sure future generations don't equate a computer with a consumption device rather than a productive device? How can we make sure they can find out that this "magical device" isn't actually driven by fairy dust? Whether or not some share of the population uses notebooks, when the default for the millions and billions of non-hackers out there is to use a tablet, doesn't matter very much at that point. Fortunately there are initiatives like the Raspberry Pi. It's telling that one of the main initiators of that project, David Braben, is also an old-school guy who grew up with computers in the 80s. Or so I'm guessing -- at any rate, he wrote some of my favorite 80s games, Elite and later Frontier. But I fear that if you plot the Raspberry's sales curve into Atwood's graph it won't look anything like the iPad.

jiggy2011 15y ago
Well things will need to be produced somehow, I imagine this will still be done with some form of computer. Whether or not you keep the keyboard has little to do with the "freedom" of the device. The question is what the difference will be between the consumption devices and the production devices. Whether the devices for creating content become specialized pieces of equipment priced out of reach of the general market and you get to touch one for the first time when you turn 18 and start your computer science course or perhaps with increasing viability of virtual machines you simply download a program that gives you all of your power tools but inside a sandbox so if you mess it up you can just re-image and go again. There will also be as you suggested "hacker hardware" like the Raspberry Pi, I think the key for these is to make sure the costs are low and that they are available to kids in school. The "hacker spirit" can overcome many obstacles. Hell in the 70s nobody had a computer at home and the original hackers used to break the law by breaking into companies computer systems via telephone lines just to play around with them.

benevpayor 15y ago

I hope the barrier to entry to be a producer will stay as low as it is now. I worry that as PC demand goes down, the cost to get started in programming will go up. I started to learn how to code web sites while procrastinating one afternoon during finals week; I discovered Apache on my macbook. The barrier to entry was almost accidental, because I had all this great stuff on my computer waiting for me to discover it. Those experiences will be more rare in the post-PC erra.

victork2 15y ago
Funny you mention that, but in a world totally dominated by iPads the price to just have your application being available by legal means is 99$. When I began to code(around 12-15) 99$ was WAY above anything I could imagine. I don't know if my parents would have allowed me to spend such a sum. Hopefully you can get started and publish for Android for free! So, who knows what the future holds for the cost of content creation... Again people often ignore the long-term externalities they produce when they make their choices, buying a PC or a tablet being one of these choices.
- wikyd 15y ago
  Are they ignoring the "long-term externalities" or is it just impossible to actually know what they are? Or maybe they just disagree and are putting their money where their mouth is. To even expect a non-programmer to consider this issue strikes me as pretty crazy. I bought an iPad and I don't think that it's going to affect distribution of software in any meaningful way, besides making it easier for developers to reach users through the app store. For one, anyone can deploy an app to Heroku for free. You can host plain html, css, and js for free. You can learn how to program an iOS device for free with tons of great guides and materials online. When you want to distribute it, there is a hurdle to clear, but (and this might be a cultural thing), $100 as a 12-15 year old is not such a wild sum. It also makes my experience browsing the app store better.
- ghshephard 15y ago
  Xcode is free (as in beer): https://developer.apple.com/xcode/index.php https://developer.apple.com/xcode/index.php You only need to register in the iOS Developer Program if you plan on distributing your apps in the App Store.

mattbriggs 15y ago

the iPad is a _great_ couch, porch, or kitchen computer. Just because you buy one doesn't mean it needs to replace everything else :)

nahname 15y ago

I don't think the point is that the market will shift all to tablets. It is more that, given an upbringing within a "consumer" household. The individuals there will have little opportunity to experience and gain familiarity with, something that can produce. You and I will continue to use PCs, our kids and our friends will likely be using tablets more and more.

andrewfelix 15y ago

>Will it replace a PC for every usage ? Are you kidding me: Development, 3D Effect, Advanced Audio Processing, Advanced Photo processing... No. But for a large proportion of the PC Market this doesn't apply. They only ever used their PC for email, youtube, email etc. So for what is probably a majority of PC users (ie. Not you, me or most HN readers) this is 'Tablet vs Computer'. To call the argument 'dumb' is dumb. Make your point without attempting to dismiss the argument in such a cheap manner.

shahar2k 15y ago

the idea of the general purpose mechanical vehicle died a long time ago, the idea of the all purpose computing device should also. while these ARE general purpose machines as far as their internals go, even with pcs and laptops different tools are required to perform different tasks. Artists use wacom pads and cintiqs to "create" audio experts use mixing boards and MIDI instruments, 3d artists use even more specialized tools (this is my proffession so I happen to know more about it than the others) a lot of what is happening with tablet computers is that the keyboard/mouse combination, once a first class input device used by coders and office employees is becoming a peripheral just like all the others I have been talking about.

bergie 15y ago
Great comparison. If you look at things like Garageband on the iPad, you can certainly make music with the touchscreen only. But any musician would probably still be more productive when using the real instrument as the input device. Same with office work: yes, you can write on the virtual keyboard, but can still attach a physical one if you want

ekianjo 15y ago

Agree with your point overall, but if you look at it this way, there were lots of people who were, before, using a computer just as a "consumer" of media, internet, music, information, etc... they had to get a PC because there was nothing else to replace that tool. Now, for THESE people, a tablet makes more sense: it fits their needs. So the conversion we may be seeing right now is around those who were simple consumers in the first place. Creators who need to consume and to create will of course prefer to have a desktop, a laptop on top of a tablet. And there may not be much evolution on the desktop or laptop side because there is no such need to be: the desktop environment has had dozens of year to evolve, its concepts are solid for its intended usages.

netcan 15y ago

The question is what makes the thing a tablet or a PC for the purpose of what we're discussing. We can probably all agree on the point that a thing with a bigger screen and a keyboard will always be a big part of the mix. But, something could fit that description while being more similar to a tablet. I think that's the point Atwood is making.

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago

The thing we need to look at different is that there are types of creator. Damon Albarn recorded a massive chunk of one of the Gorillaz albums on an iPad, David Hockney sketches on one. There are ways in which tablets have massive creative potential. The interface for instance allows a very direct interaction for some mediums and when you look at something like Garageband it has a very shallow learning curve (and price point) which will potentially pull a lot of people in who would have never have looked at that sort of thing on a desktop or laptop. I think it's important to differentiate between the things that allows developers to be creative and the things that allow others to be so. To say I'm on the side of the creator and am anti-tablets is to subscribe to a very fixed and narrow definition of what enables creativity.

danssig 15y ago

>It's not a versus, it's a peaceful cohabitation, only some evangelist and/or journalists want to push us to believe there's a war but that's really not true. The issue is; lots of people who never should have had desktops had to get them because there was no other option. It's not that the Desktop market will die or go away, it's simply that it will contract to what it should have been all along: a very small home market and a large business one.