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Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to disinformation
- consumer451 3y agohttps://archive.is/yZSxB https://archive.is/yZSxB
- consumer451 3y agoReddit has also removed the report disinformation option.
- h2odragon 3y agoDisinformation like "Hunter's Laptop is Russian Disinformation"? Disinformation like "Russians are planting Maui Wildfire roadblock rumors" stories? "Disinformation" has become the blanket term applied to any disagreement with official lies.
- consumer451 3y agoIs your position that organized disinformation campaigns, from any and all sources, should not be quelled?
- jacquesm 3y agoIs that a rhetorical question?
- consumer451 3y agoNo, but I have a slight hangover from speaking with a Russian friend in the EU who does not believe that there is any "truth." That could be coloring my comments here.
- jacquesm 3y agoUnderstood. The people that are the most vocal around this whole 'post truth' thing are as a rule part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. Usually it boils down to 'don't trust the government, don't trust your eyes, don't trust the media and don't trust your friends', but here is a link to a shady website with a bunch of ridiculous stuff that you should definitely trust. Very boring, really.
- consumer451 3y ago> Very boring, really. Indeed. But even worse, it is also exhausting. Meta: This post was removed from the HN feed entirely. Not just bumped off the frontpage, as I have seen before. From frontpage to oblivion. Would love to know the admin logic there. Now it is flagged, but it was removed from the feed prior to that by admins. I know, I know, first rule of fight club. But to quote Cicero, what's the point of fake internet points if you can't use them?
- mistermann 3y ago[flagged]
- h2odragon 3y ago"quelled"? how? If you think a story is bullshite, you should be free to say so. If you disagree, likewise. So many things that have been characterized as "organized disinformation campaigns" over the last 3 years turned out to be individuals expressing opinions; the organization and the lies were on the other side of those conflicts. Where do we put advertising in this? Does Red bull give you wings or cancer? Should someone be allowed to pay others to propagate a message stating one, but not the other? (edited to try to increase clarity)
- consumer451 3y ago> If you think that's what it is, you should be free to say so. If you disagree, likewise. If somebody creates a media platform, do they not have responsibility as to how that platform is used? I believe that they do. Let's take the Rohingya genocide in Myanmar. Should FB be off the hook for expanding into a country where they had no language skills to enforce their own moderation rules? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46105934 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46105934 > "quelled"? how? There are all sorts of moderation tools. For example, Community Notes on twitter.
- FeepingCreature 3y agoNot the parent, but that is my position. "Quelled" implies an extremely uncomfortable level of centralized power. Of course, any individual user should be able to opt in and out of sources at will.
- consumer451 3y ago> "Quelled" implies an extremely uncomfortable level of centralized power That's just reality. It should make you uncomfortable. There used to be thousands of newspaper editors who decided what we read. There were diverse views. Today a few network & platform owners have an extreme amount of power to decide what we read. For example, this post was on the front page, then suddenly an admin broke known HN rules and just removed it from the feed entirely. I have never seen this occur before. Later it was flagged, but an admin matching pg's temperament just yanked it to begin with.
- consumer451 3y agoAfter some thought, I do understand that "quelled" was maybe the wrong English word to use. Maybe, "the amplification minimized."
- pangolinja 3y ago[flagged]
- Zigurd 3y agoWould it be a good guess that you're not vaccinated?
- mark_l_watson 3y agoPlease indulge my curiosity. Do you agree with the rest of the grandparent’s comments? It seems like many people disagree with someone’s vaccination personal opinion and then discard the rest of their ideas. How do you feel about the rest of their points? I have some bias about vaccines: as an old man I was grateful to get vaccinated and also grateful to get PAXLOVID after I got Covid. However, I have 100% sympathy for young healthy people who didn’t want the vaccine.
- Zigurd 3y agoVaccines are effective if enough people take them. That unvaccinated young person could be what kills you. It's not a matter of saving that person from themselves. It's a matter of improving everyone's odds.
- hotdogscout 3y agoSadly the COVID variants spread (not Delta) are hardly affected by the vaccine. https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj.p1111 https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj.p1111
- mark_l_watson 3y ago+1 you fit many valid points into one short paragraph. Well done!
- AlexandrB 3y ago> COVID Disinformation spread as fact? I agree. It was pretty egregious how many people were claiming that ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine were able to cure COVID. But a lot of that stuff was getting banned at least.
- vorpalhex 3y agoGood. An environment where only "allowed" narratives exist _even if_ they are correct is not a healthy environment. It is non-free. WaPo has peddled disinfo before. They are in no place to be flinging mud or playing the censor.
- natch 3y agoIronically, the swipe at Elon in the title is itself disinformation, since he’s doing nothing of the sort. He is however allowing real people to have free speech as defined within the bounds of law (and the rules of the platform obviously), so that different viewpoints can be aired in the light of day.
- rideontime 3y ago> and the rules of the platform obviously This little parenthetical destroys the rest of your claim.
- natch 3y agoYou don’t back up your claim but I disagree and here’s why: It’s perfectly legit to disallow spam for instance. Incitements to violence, stalking, and doxing would be other easy examples.
- rideontime 3y agoThe point is that "as defined within the bounds of the law" is a subset of "the rules of the platform" and is thus meaningless here.
- natch 3y agook
- dclowd9901 3y agoI do loathe to make the comparison because it’s lazy, but humor me: if, back during the rise of the third reich, someone were able to silence Hitler and keep him from gaining the spotlight and eventually becoming Germany’s chancellor, would it not have been a good idea to do that? Do you not believe in the possibility that some people just are _bad_ for the world and maybe should not be heard? Has history not shown enough that such people have and do exist? I’m not sure I believe in free speech for everyone. I think some people are simply too powerful to be able to say whatever they want.
- crop_rotation 3y agoWhy don't governments just establish departments/ministries to quell disinformation if it is so important. I think a Ministry of Truth similar to Ministry of Defence is what will do the job. Given that so many people in Government and media think the truth is always objective and universally known, a Ministry of Truth seems like an inevitable conclusion. Just like the FDA does for food, it can determine what falsehoods are hurting regular people
- dclowd9901 3y agoI can’t tell if you’re joking…
- hotdogscout 3y agoThe only way to question some perspectives here without getting downvoted is irony and maieutics.
- 86786767 3y ago[dead]
- stephc_int13 3y agoThe best counter against propaganda and disinformation is dilution. Trying to get a monopoly on "truth" is a short path to the worst kind of propaganda, the single sided one. I don't mind the flat-earthers and the climate-skeptics and the crazy UFO tribe as long as I can hear different voices.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Zigurd 3y agoThe problem is the disinformation narratives tend to clump together the way that mythologies form into cults and religions by combining stories about external threats. You can see this in present-day disinformation because conspiracy theory adherence is rarely about one thing. it's always a package deal.
- mistermann 3y agoCareful though: we don't have any way of knowing with remotely any accuracy what the conspiracy theory world is composed of, or what conspiracy theorists believe, we only can go on what others (often very persuasively) say about them. Believe what you'd like, but at least have some realization of what's really going on.
- krapp 3y agoConspiracy theorists have entire ecosystems of boards and forums where they themselves discuss what they believe, and they often spread their beliefs openly. The premise that "the conspiracy theory world" is a black box is ridiculous.
- mistermann 3y ago> Conspiracy theorists have entire ecosystems of boards and forums where they themselves discuss what they believe, and they often spread their beliefs openly. Some of them do. > The premise that "the conspiracy theory world" is a black box is ridiculous. It is indeed - did you notice that it wasn't me who said that? You are bot criticizing conspiracy theorists, you are criticizing your internal representation of them, that's why you make unforced errors: what you see is not the thing itself. It is painful having to explain this to people over and over, and having them laugh as if it's some sort of a pseudo-scientific conspiracy theory - it is literally a scientific fact.
- hotdogscout 3y agoElon is less polished or inclined to perform but it's a lot easier to read him and I like this. Jack Dorsey was much worse in this respect and he'd actually DJ twitter discourse behind the scenes in secrecy. https://nypost.com/2022/12/17/twitter-leadership-full-of-former-fbi-agents-linkedin-records-show/ https://nypost.com/2022/12/17/twitter-leadership-full-of-for...
- mistermann 3y agoPossibly relevant: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opinion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opin... https://www.nytimes.com/1976/02/09/archives/cia-infiltration-of-press-overseas-viewed-as-influencing-news.html https://www.nytimes.com/1976/02/09/archives/cia-infiltration... But then, it's a dangerous world out there, who am I to say whether the ends justify the means or not?
- hotdogscout 3y agoElon is butting heads with Palantir though, while Dorsey employed them. My country (Brazil) was subjected to a CIA backed coup but after seeing the fate of freedoms in socialist neighbors I think it was for the better.
- Pannoniae 3y agoParaphrasing an English judge in the 80's ("the public interest is what the government of the day says it is"), misinformation is whoever holds power says it is. Whatever is "true" today might be "misinformation" tomorrow and vice versa. This is just plain censorship, dressed up in different clothing.
- aik 3y agoHopefully Community Notes in Twitter helps provide useful context in many cases?
- rewmie 3y agoSounds like yet another feature designed for disinformation bad actors to abuse. Even Wikipedia has editors that delete vandalism/disinformation and lock articles under attack by propaganda organizations.
- moistofreason 3y agoLol this headline is disinformation
- AnimalMuppet 3y agoHere's the problem: 1. There is genuine disinformation. Russia, China, and North Korea (at least) have active disinformation organizations, Russia's being the most effective. 2. Disinformation has become weaponized by both US political parties as a way to try to shut down positions they don't agree with. "All the evidence points our way; all the evidence that doesn't is disinformation." And, in fact, as we have come to expect politicians to lie, we should probably come to expect political parties to conduct disinformation campaigns. I don't want to be on the receiving end of disinformation campaigns. I also don't want people to be able to label anything they don't like as "disinformation", and thereby stop me from seeing it. I am essentially asking big tech to do the impossible. No matter what they do, they can't do both pieces of what I want. The internet used to be a place where you could go to find information. Now it's a place where you go to find disinformation. For those of us who loved the old internet, that's an extremely painful change.