4 ms·

The ban on advertising targeted at things like sexual preferences will be interesting to watch. As some people have pointed out, Netflix for example seems to be

by b800h 3y ago

The ban on advertising targeted at things like sexual preferences will be interesting to watch. As some people have pointed out, Netflix for example seems to be very good at targeting people who are "questioning", anecdotally before they begin to consciously do so; the suggestion being that this isn't intentional. So if an AI decides that I'm likely to buy something LGBT if they offer it to me, despite using no label for the category, rather a token in the net, then does this break the rule? If so, can I ever responsibly use any form of AI-based targeting? EDIT to add ref: [https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66472938 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66472938]

Nursie 3y ago
That is interesting, and kinda weird. Where is the line I wonder? If Netflix effectively says “you seem to like watching gay stuff, here’s more gay content”, is that wrong? Because it seems like that’s not Netflix targeting a user’s sexuality, just their viewing preferences. OTOH it’s pretty harrowing to hear about people in (for instance) Uganda who are outed by an algorithm and (whether it is correct or not) find themselves ostracised or worse.
- b800h 3y ago
  I've definitely had situations on Spotify where I've been listening to Abba and the Scissor Sisters, and started to be offered playlists aimed at LGBT people, but this is musical-choice targeting. It just happens that I like stuff that gay people like.
  - alias_neo 3y ago
    Spotify algorithms are complete trash. There was a period when, for some reason, it would recommend playlists related to getting "tarted up", "makeup on", being a "powerful woman" etc and recommending lots of music it thinks is for women. Though I do listen to a wide variety of music, there's nothing notable I'd say could encourage it to believe that. Generally I play metal and rock, grime, rap, hip-hop; but also classical, some pop and indie, occasionally "UK Top 50", "Coding Mode" and "Jazz Vibes" playlists and lots of children's bath time songs. I had to have a purge and its much better now but I still avoid the auto-playlists.
    - b800h 3y ago
      I bet you it's the children's bath-time songs that did it. Very mumsnet-on-the-razz.
      - alias_neo 3y ago
        It's a weird one, the playlists it was creating for me had a very "young woman" vibe, say 20s, aside from not being a woman I am not that young either, also, does Spotify think parenting is only for mums? I wonder if it had something to do with my location; I was living in London and now live in the North.
- xg15 3y ago
  I'd argue it is, and it should be so even in the US. Even if Netflix's intentions had been perfectly benign - and even if they didn't specifically target this category but only did so emergently through some unsupervised algorithm - they now have a way to find out for all of their customers whether they are closetted gay. Imagine someone like Trump or Desantis or even worse coming to power. People like those will certainly find such databases helpful, and they won't care at all whether the data is ostensibly about viewing preferences or directly about sexual orientation.
  - Nursie 3y ago
    Yeah I absolutely agree that it’s chilling what could be done with that information and it won’t matter to such people whether it’s accurate. I mentioned Uganda because I listened to a story earlier in the week about a man being thrown out of his mother’s home because she saw his Tik-Tok feed and it was full of very openly gay content. So we don’t necessarily have to imagine it - in some places this is already happening.
  - dangles 3y ago
    No need for a counterfactual, how do you think Trump used this data when he came to power?
    - ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
      No idea, what did he do?
Xelbair 3y ago
>Legislation is put in place to ban behavioral advertising >"how i can use Tech XYZ to do behavioral advertising now?" you don't.
- b800h 3y ago
  "the DSA bans targeted advertising based on a person’s sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, or political beliefs and puts restrictions on targeting ads to children." So I can still apparently, for example, target running shoes to people who like running, for example.
  - nine_k 3y ago
    I wonder how will female hygiene products be advertised. One way to do that would be to advertise to everyone, and.allow to opt out. Thus the advertisers would build up a database of users who don't mind such advertisements. It will be an overwhelmingly female audience, but it's not going to be targeting based on gender (gleaned somehow), it will be based on revealed preferences of users.
    - asvitkine 3y ago
      Is advertising based on things correlated with gender allowed? Since the opt-out would presumably be correlated with gender. But then if that's allowed, you can claim the AI model is just correlated with gender or whatever and not using the field directly and thus also OK.
      - htrp 3y ago
        >But then if that's allowed, you can claim the AI model is just correlated with gender or whatever and not using the field directly and thus also OK. That genererally doesn't work on protected classes even in the USA (a privacy laggard). Look up the history of redlining.
    - wongarsu 3y ago
      I imagine the best way would be good old context based advertising. Don't advertise to women, but book banner ads on women's health websites, run preroll ads on movie reviews of romcoms, sponsor true crime podcasts and fashion influencers, run ads on the websites of "women's health" or "cosmopolitan". That's how basically all advertisement worked until just over a decade ago, and it's how a lot of advertisement is still done today.
mellosouls 3y ago
Briefly discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37106476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37106476
tzs 3y ago
Are Netflix recommendations advertising? The people who see them have already bought the product (a Netflix subscription) so the recommendation isn't trying to convince them to buy something.
- deutschepost 3y ago
  Of course they are. If people don't see content they want to watch when they start Netflix they will eventually stop paying for it. Netflix is not there for you to watch your favorite movies when you want. It is there to encourage you to watch as much Netflix as possible. So it makes sense for them to advertise as much content to you as possible.
- xigoi 3y ago
  A subscription is by definition something you have to keep paying, so it doesn't make sense to say that they've already bought it.
ella-hashir 3y ago
i see a lot of pg18 ads on my workspace, i fell annoyed, who to blame?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- faciacatering 3y ago
  may be you check your history, may be you have log in your personal account on system or may contact sys admins
r00fus 3y ago
But Netflix isn’t one of the “very large platforms” identified. Not sure when the DSA will impact smaller platforms but you won’t see it for some while.

by b800h 3y ago

Nursie 3y ago

That is interesting, and kinda weird. Where is the line I wonder? If Netflix effectively says “you seem to like watching gay stuff, here’s more gay content”, is that wrong? Because it seems like that’s not Netflix targeting a user’s sexuality, just their viewing preferences. OTOH it’s pretty harrowing to hear about people in (for instance) Uganda who are outed by an algorithm and (whether it is correct or not) find themselves ostracised or worse.

b800h 3y ago
I've definitely had situations on Spotify where I've been listening to Abba and the Scissor Sisters, and started to be offered playlists aimed at LGBT people, but this is musical-choice targeting. It just happens that I like stuff that gay people like.
- alias_neo 3y ago
  Spotify algorithms are complete trash. There was a period when, for some reason, it would recommend playlists related to getting "tarted up", "makeup on", being a "powerful woman" etc and recommending lots of music it thinks is for women. Though I do listen to a wide variety of music, there's nothing notable I'd say could encourage it to believe that. Generally I play metal and rock, grime, rap, hip-hop; but also classical, some pop and indie, occasionally "UK Top 50", "Coding Mode" and "Jazz Vibes" playlists and lots of children's bath time songs. I had to have a purge and its much better now but I still avoid the auto-playlists.
  - b800h 3y ago
    I bet you it's the children's bath-time songs that did it. Very mumsnet-on-the-razz.
    - alias_neo 3y ago
      It's a weird one, the playlists it was creating for me had a very "young woman" vibe, say 20s, aside from not being a woman I am not that young either, also, does Spotify think parenting is only for mums? I wonder if it had something to do with my location; I was living in London and now live in the North.
xg15 3y ago
I'd argue it is, and it should be so even in the US. Even if Netflix's intentions had been perfectly benign - and even if they didn't specifically target this category but only did so emergently through some unsupervised algorithm - they now have a way to find out for all of their customers whether they are closetted gay. Imagine someone like Trump or Desantis or even worse coming to power. People like those will certainly find such databases helpful, and they won't care at all whether the data is ostensibly about viewing preferences or directly about sexual orientation.
- Nursie 3y ago
  Yeah I absolutely agree that it’s chilling what could be done with that information and it won’t matter to such people whether it’s accurate. I mentioned Uganda because I listened to a story earlier in the week about a man being thrown out of his mother’s home because she saw his Tik-Tok feed and it was full of very openly gay content. So we don’t necessarily have to imagine it - in some places this is already happening.
- dangles 3y ago
  No need for a counterfactual, how do you think Trump used this data when he came to power?
  - ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
    No idea, what did he do?

Xelbair 3y ago

>Legislation is put in place to ban behavioral advertising >"how i can use Tech XYZ to do behavioral advertising now?" you don't.

b800h 3y ago
"the DSA bans targeted advertising based on a person’s sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, or political beliefs and puts restrictions on targeting ads to children." So I can still apparently, for example, target running shoes to people who like running, for example.
- nine_k 3y ago
  I wonder how will female hygiene products be advertised. One way to do that would be to advertise to everyone, and.allow to opt out. Thus the advertisers would build up a database of users who don't mind such advertisements. It will be an overwhelmingly female audience, but it's not going to be targeting based on gender (gleaned somehow), it will be based on revealed preferences of users.
  - asvitkine 3y ago
    Is advertising based on things correlated with gender allowed? Since the opt-out would presumably be correlated with gender. But then if that's allowed, you can claim the AI model is just correlated with gender or whatever and not using the field directly and thus also OK.
    - htrp 3y ago
      >But then if that's allowed, you can claim the AI model is just correlated with gender or whatever and not using the field directly and thus also OK. That genererally doesn't work on protected classes even in the USA (a privacy laggard). Look up the history of redlining.
  - wongarsu 3y ago
    I imagine the best way would be good old context based advertising. Don't advertise to women, but book banner ads on women's health websites, run preroll ads on movie reviews of romcoms, sponsor true crime podcasts and fashion influencers, run ads on the websites of "women's health" or "cosmopolitan". That's how basically all advertisement worked until just over a decade ago, and it's how a lot of advertisement is still done today.

mellosouls 3y ago

Briefly discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37106476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37106476

tzs 3y ago

Are Netflix recommendations advertising? The people who see them have already bought the product (a Netflix subscription) so the recommendation isn't trying to convince them to buy something.

deutschepost 3y ago
Of course they are. If people don't see content they want to watch when they start Netflix they will eventually stop paying for it. Netflix is not there for you to watch your favorite movies when you want. It is there to encourage you to watch as much Netflix as possible. So it makes sense for them to advertise as much content to you as possible.
xigoi 3y ago
A subscription is by definition something you have to keep paying, so it doesn't make sense to say that they've already bought it.

ella-hashir 3y ago

i see a lot of pg18 ads on my workspace, i fell annoyed, who to blame?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
faciacatering 3y ago
may be you check your history, may be you have log in your personal account on system or may contact sys admins

r00fus 3y ago

But Netflix isn’t one of the “very large platforms” identified. Not sure when the DSA will impact smaller platforms but you won’t see it for some while.