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While all the sentences you wrote are technically correct, your point is wrong. > you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age As w

While all the sentences you wrote are technically correct, your point is wrong. > you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. Health insurance for a couple (assuming you can get it and it covers anything that you might have wrong) is about the same cost as my mortage here in the UK. It's also not a government mandated retirement age, it's the age that the government will provide financial support to you. It's feasible for someone on a median income in the UK (where I live) to retire before they hit 66, as long as they prepare. Someone making a median income in the US is unlikely to be able to. > which is increasing Again, technically true but also misleading. It's not just steadily increasing, there's only so far it can go. The equivalent age in the US is already 70, fwiw. > Our economic growth across the EU is stagnant The horror. Personally, I'll take stagnant economic growth over statistics that get pumped by tech firms that are richer than entire countries in europe - Microsoft and Apple are individually worth more than Italy. > These are not things to be celebrated. US cost of living is skyrocketing (they're behind us at the moment, but their COL was already higher so the comparison is tough). Inequality levels in the US are still wildly higher than anywhere in europe (even the UK), the US has massive social problems that don't exist on the same scale here, etc. These are not things to be celebrated either.

armitron 3y ago
> As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. In the US, most highly-skilled senior engineers will be multi-millionaires in their 40s which means that they can immediately retire and pay out of pocket for private health insurance covering the entire family without even making a dent on their principal. Even if that wasn't an option, one can get health insurance via one's spouse or work a few hours part-time for an employer that provides it. I retired in my 40s and spent the last 10 years living in both the US and multiple European countries (with a lot of time spent in Germany as I have family there). While I've so far enjoyed living in Europe, the worsening downward slope in quality of life is more obvious here than in the US. Unrestrained immigration is a big problem that's going to get a lot worse in the next decades and is already rapidly eroding the much praised European social safety nets. Ultimately, US offers optionality which means that one isn't chained like a slave to a grossly inefficient disintegrating socialist state for the rest of one's life.
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  > Most capable senior engineers... What about the less capable though? Do we just forget they exist?
  - maccard 3y ago
    Or the capable engineers who can't/don't want to up and move to thousands of miles away from their lives.
- maccard 3y ago
  > One has optionality and isn't chained like a slave to a grossly inefficient socialist state for the rest of one's life. I don't think this conversation is worth continuing if you consider the US a bastion of freedom and the entirety of europe being entrapped to socialism.
- h0l0cube 3y ago
  > In the US, most highly-skilled senior engineers will be multi-millionaires in their 40s I don't think workers' rights movements and government policies that promote said rights are really centered around uplifting highly-skilled senior engineers. Certainly if you have in-demand talent, migrate to whatever country pays the most for it. You have that luxury
- janosdebugs 3y ago
  Dunno, I've met several senior engineers whom I would consider highly skilled and while they were well off, it didn't look like they are multi-millionaires. Also, given the trend of firing senior engineers and hiring only juniors lately, I wouldn't count on that trend continuing.
  - mmmmmbop 3y ago
    I've noticed the opposite trend. Right now, it's hard to find a position as a junior, whereas seniors are still in demand.
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
emptysongglass 3y ago
You don't need to do _wild_ savings to retire at an age where you can enjoy your health in the US, as a tech worker. Cost of living is skyrocketing where in the US and to what degree higher than its EU equivalent? The EU has borne the brunt of inflation so I'm having a hard time seeing where EU citizens are paying less to live than Americans. > The horror. Personally, I'll take stagnant economic growth over statistics that get pumped by tech firms that are richer than entire countries in europe - Microsoft and Apple are individually worth more than Italy. Ok. Economic growth is not a vanity metric for pumped up tech firms to move the needle on. Economic growth has direct effects on comparative quality of life. Trying to make some other, vaguely conspiratorial, equivalence is ignorant at the least.
- danaris 3y ago
  Ah, yes; because the only people we should consider in these discussions are Silicon Valley tech workers, who consider making $150k a year to be "on the low side". Do you ever give a thought to the vast majority of Americans who make less than you? Or even to the vast majority of tech workers who make less than you?
  - seanp2k2 3y ago
    Just for some additional context here, look at average housing prices for a single-family home, not even something nice, I mean like 1000sqft 2/2 in a neighborhood without a drive-by shooting once per week. Calculate the mortgage payment on that with the current 7-8% rate. Calculate how much you bring home net on $150k after taxes. Now you’re on your way to seeing why that’s basically “low income” (technically $104k/yr for a single person living alone): https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/low-income-median-levels-18164328.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/low-income-media... Wait until you find out about Prop 13 and how that new 80 year old $1.5m house you bought costs 10x in taxes what everyone else on the block pays because they got there in the 70s and 80s.
  - Freedom2 3y ago
    Is there any surprise in an American having such a narrow view where they only consider their own circumstances?

armitron 3y ago

> As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. In the US, most highly-skilled senior engineers will be multi-millionaires in their 40s which means that they can immediately retire and pay out of pocket for private health insurance covering the entire family without even making a dent on their principal. Even if that wasn't an option, one can get health insurance via one's spouse or work a few hours part-time for an employer that provides it. I retired in my 40s and spent the last 10 years living in both the US and multiple European countries (with a lot of time spent in Germany as I have family there). While I've so far enjoyed living in Europe, the worsening downward slope in quality of life is more obvious here than in the US. Unrestrained immigration is a big problem that's going to get a lot worse in the next decades and is already rapidly eroding the much praised European social safety nets. Ultimately, US offers optionality which means that one isn't chained like a slave to a grossly inefficient disintegrating socialist state for the rest of one's life.

flohofwoe 3y ago
> Most capable senior engineers... What about the less capable though? Do we just forget they exist?
- maccard 3y ago
  Or the capable engineers who can't/don't want to up and move to thousands of miles away from their lives.
maccard 3y ago
> One has optionality and isn't chained like a slave to a grossly inefficient socialist state for the rest of one's life. I don't think this conversation is worth continuing if you consider the US a bastion of freedom and the entirety of europe being entrapped to socialism.
h0l0cube 3y ago
> In the US, most highly-skilled senior engineers will be multi-millionaires in their 40s I don't think workers' rights movements and government policies that promote said rights are really centered around uplifting highly-skilled senior engineers. Certainly if you have in-demand talent, migrate to whatever country pays the most for it. You have that luxury
janosdebugs 3y ago
Dunno, I've met several senior engineers whom I would consider highly skilled and while they were well off, it didn't look like they are multi-millionaires. Also, given the trend of firing senior engineers and hiring only juniors lately, I wouldn't count on that trend continuing.
- mmmmmbop 3y ago
  I've noticed the opposite trend. Right now, it's hard to find a position as a junior, whereas seniors are still in demand.
ohgodplsno 3y ago

emptysongglass 3y ago

You don't need to do _wild_ savings to retire at an age where you can enjoy your health in the US, as a tech worker. Cost of living is skyrocketing where in the US and to what degree higher than its EU equivalent? The EU has borne the brunt of inflation so I'm having a hard time seeing where EU citizens are paying less to live than Americans. > The horror. Personally, I'll take stagnant economic growth over statistics that get pumped by tech firms that are richer than entire countries in europe - Microsoft and Apple are individually worth more than Italy. Ok. Economic growth is not a vanity metric for pumped up tech firms to move the needle on. Economic growth has direct effects on comparative quality of life. Trying to make some other, vaguely conspiratorial, equivalence is ignorant at the least.

danaris 3y ago
Ah, yes; because the only people we should consider in these discussions are Silicon Valley tech workers, who consider making $150k a year to be "on the low side". Do you ever give a thought to the vast majority of Americans who make less than you? Or even to the vast majority of tech workers who make less than you?
- seanp2k2 3y ago
  Just for some additional context here, look at average housing prices for a single-family home, not even something nice, I mean like 1000sqft 2/2 in a neighborhood without a drive-by shooting once per week. Calculate the mortgage payment on that with the current 7-8% rate. Calculate how much you bring home net on $150k after taxes. Now you’re on your way to seeing why that’s basically “low income” (technically $104k/yr for a single person living alone): https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/low-income-median-levels-18164328.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/low-income-media... Wait until you find out about Prop 13 and how that new 80 year old $1.5m house you bought costs 10x in taxes what everyone else on the block pays because they got there in the 70s and 80s.
- Freedom2 3y ago
  Is there any surprise in an American having such a narrow view where they only consider their own circumstances?