3 ms·

Very hard to skim over. Can anyone summarize? Looks like its trying to make a very simple point in a very long-winded way.

keithalewis 3y ago
Username checks out.
ryandv 3y ago
The most difficult and time consuming activity of software engineering is not the production of source code as a textual artifact, but building a mental model of the software system - why it was built a certain way, how it may be extended, how it may not be extended, how to answer questions about the system, an understanding of the abstractions within it and how to use them. In particular, this understanding exists outside of the source code itself. It's for this reason that I am skeptical of ChatGPT, which automates the most trivial part of software engineering - writing the code. GPT will not give you understanding, only the textual artifact (and whether or not this artifact is actually the product of some AI "understanding" is unclear).
- tudorw 3y ago
  While the underlying model may not have 'understanding', the iterative process of interacting with the model creates a context that in my experience has captured part of the 'area of interest' during a pair programming session, our interactions have created a unique context that means the model responds as if it has modelled an 'understanding', it is something more than simply a text record of our conversation.
- grumblingdev 3y ago
  > for this reason that I am skeptical of ChatGPT Me too! I think its wayyy over-hyped. The biggest challenges in software are architecture. Object boundaries. System composition. And I'm a big believer that all the software we write today is shit. So GPT is just regurgitating bad practices.
  - fasterik 3y ago
    I think this is true for any domain of knowledge in ChatGPT. Its knowledge is shallow in a certain sense, but a lot of things don't require deep knowledge. Shallow knowledge generated very quickly can still be useful. I find ChatGPT to be very useful as a source of documentation. I can ask it to summarize a certain scientific topic for me, or how to do a certain thing in the Win32 API. I'm not going to take its output at face value, but it still speeds up the process of figuring out what I should research further, what function to call, etc.
    - kaycebasques 3y ago
      > Shallow knowledge generated very quickly can still be useful. A great, concise summary of the idea I was grasping at. Thank you.
      - Terr_ 3y ago
        Come to think of it, there are entire human careers--or at least subtasks--based around the same concept. It also describes certain forms of advertising.
- codeprimate 3y ago
  You MUST use RAG (retrieval augmented generation) for ChatGPT to be generally useful for programming. I use a ChatGPT-based script using RAG to work with code-bases. I include text documentation included in the repository, descriptions of application and folder conventions in the documentation folder, and file paths for source information in the augmented prompt. The documentation it creates is nearly as good as my own and I feed the output back into the documentation folder for even better understanding of the application. I am working on an effective prompt to enforce overall implementation style and approach. ChatGPT strays toward system-agnostic and lower-level abstractions instead of application conventions. Conventions at a higher level of abstraction are a subtle but important aspect of the application theory.
amw-zero 3y ago
I think you should be able to read a 9 page paper. But here is a summary: https://ratfactor.com/papers/naur1 https://ratfactor.com/papers/naur1.
- 0x445442 3y ago
  Thanks for the link. I really like the bit that expands on the notion that premature optimization is not limited to run time optimizations but to, perhaps more so, abstraction optimizations.
fsloth 3y ago
The point is not simple. It’s the most perfect summary of the biggest problems in software engineering ever written. There are rare papers that are worth investing time. This is one of those.
dahjelle 3y ago
I gave a talk on it at a local meetup. Here’s my notes and slides: https://gitlab.com/dahjelle/programming-as-theory-building-2023-04-20 https://gitlab.com/dahjelle/programming-as-theory-building-2... The Future of Coding podcast also had an episode on it: https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/061 https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/061
- crabmusket 3y ago
  That FoC episode was my introduction to the show and was completely fantastic. The discussion was interesting, but they also had a lot of fun with the format which I was not expecting.
layer8 3y ago
Read the conclusion at the end of the paper, it’s a single paragraph.

keithalewis 3y ago

Username checks out.

ryandv 3y ago

The most difficult and time consuming activity of software engineering is not the production of source code as a textual artifact, but building a mental model of the software system - why it was built a certain way, how it may be extended, how it may not be extended, how to answer questions about the system, an understanding of the abstractions within it and how to use them. In particular, this understanding exists outside of the source code itself. It's for this reason that I am skeptical of ChatGPT, which automates the most trivial part of software engineering - writing the code. GPT will not give you understanding, only the textual artifact (and whether or not this artifact is actually the product of some AI "understanding" is unclear).

tudorw 3y ago
While the underlying model may not have 'understanding', the iterative process of interacting with the model creates a context that in my experience has captured part of the 'area of interest' during a pair programming session, our interactions have created a unique context that means the model responds as if it has modelled an 'understanding', it is something more than simply a text record of our conversation.
grumblingdev 3y ago
> for this reason that I am skeptical of ChatGPT Me too! I think its wayyy over-hyped. The biggest challenges in software are architecture. Object boundaries. System composition. And I'm a big believer that all the software we write today is shit. So GPT is just regurgitating bad practices.
- fasterik 3y ago
  I think this is true for any domain of knowledge in ChatGPT. Its knowledge is shallow in a certain sense, but a lot of things don't require deep knowledge. Shallow knowledge generated very quickly can still be useful. I find ChatGPT to be very useful as a source of documentation. I can ask it to summarize a certain scientific topic for me, or how to do a certain thing in the Win32 API. I'm not going to take its output at face value, but it still speeds up the process of figuring out what I should research further, what function to call, etc.
  - kaycebasques 3y ago
    > Shallow knowledge generated very quickly can still be useful. A great, concise summary of the idea I was grasping at. Thank you.
    - Terr_ 3y ago
      Come to think of it, there are entire human careers--or at least subtasks--based around the same concept. It also describes certain forms of advertising.
codeprimate 3y ago
You MUST use RAG (retrieval augmented generation) for ChatGPT to be generally useful for programming. I use a ChatGPT-based script using RAG to work with code-bases. I include text documentation included in the repository, descriptions of application and folder conventions in the documentation folder, and file paths for source information in the augmented prompt. The documentation it creates is nearly as good as my own and I feed the output back into the documentation folder for even better understanding of the application. I am working on an effective prompt to enforce overall implementation style and approach. ChatGPT strays toward system-agnostic and lower-level abstractions instead of application conventions. Conventions at a higher level of abstraction are a subtle but important aspect of the application theory.

amw-zero 3y ago

I think you should be able to read a 9 page paper. But here is a summary: https://ratfactor.com/papers/naur1 https://ratfactor.com/papers/naur1.

0x445442 3y ago
Thanks for the link. I really like the bit that expands on the notion that premature optimization is not limited to run time optimizations but to, perhaps more so, abstraction optimizations.

fsloth 3y ago

The point is not simple. It’s the most perfect summary of the biggest problems in software engineering ever written. There are rare papers that are worth investing time. This is one of those.

dahjelle 3y ago

I gave a talk on it at a local meetup. Here’s my notes and slides: https://gitlab.com/dahjelle/programming-as-theory-building-2023-04-20 https://gitlab.com/dahjelle/programming-as-theory-building-2... The Future of Coding podcast also had an episode on it: https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/061 https://futureofcoding.org/episodes/061

crabmusket 3y ago
That FoC episode was my introduction to the show and was completely fantastic. The discussion was interesting, but they also had a lot of fun with the format which I was not expecting.

layer8 3y ago

Read the conclusion at the end of the paper, it’s a single paragraph.