3 ms·

Very cogent explanation, thank you. I hope very much that workers in Amazon warehouses are able to get unions happening on a large scale. What if I’m just bett

by tomcam 3y ago

Very cogent explanation, thank you. I hope very much that workers in Amazon warehouses are able to get unions happening on a large scale. What if I’m just better than the rest? What if I can assemble 45 amplifiers a day when my coworkers can only manage 17? (This actually happened to me, long ago.) it is my impression that a union would not allow me to negotiate better terms for myself. Or am I incorrect?

edent 3y ago
You are incorrect. That being said, it is dependent on two things. Some jurisdictions may only allow for a single contract. I don't know where you live, but in my part of the world there's nothing stopping you from negotiating a personal deal. But it can't undercut the union minimum. The second is the more important part - does the company want to negotiate with an individual? Most places don't. It costs time, money, and effort to do salary negotiations. Companies don't want to set individual contracts for 500 different workers.
- asu_thomas 3y ago
  In those worst cases, workers are almost always still better off with the union deal.
Veserv 3y ago
In the US, you are correct. By default, it is illegal for a company to negotiate terms with any individual covered by a union, even if that individual is not a dues paying member of the union. Technically, you are allowed negotiate, but it is illegal for the company to accept and it is not legally binding, so it is functionally equivalent to it being illegal to negotiate terms for yourself (assuming you want to negotiate, it is obviously better at preventing unilateral corporate abuse as the corporation would be on the hook for tricking you). I believe you can negotiate if the union lets you, but by default you can not. Also, you can not unilaterally waive union representation either, even if you are not a member, so if the union does not allow it you would need to convince 50% of the covered individuals to change the rules or dissolve the union.
danaris 3y ago
"Union" does not automatically mean "everyone doing job X gets $Y/hr, no matter what." Many unions allow for performance-based pay increases. Furthermore, if you're actually doing better (in a situation like you describe, it should be trivial to prove this), it is likely that the union would help you negotiate a better performance-based pay increase than you would be able to negotiate on your own.
UncleMeat 3y ago
How many amplifier companies actually enable their factory workers to negotiate individually effectively in ways that they couldn't with a union? Why couldn't a union negotiate terms that guarantee pay for performance in the way you want? In software, people often complain about doing the work of a certain level but not being able to be paid at that level. Union contracts could mean a seat at the table on promotion decisions. And sure, there will probably be some people who are in unusual positions where they can negotiate more effectively by themselves. Similarly, there are people who would improve their status in the United States if we had a Putin-esque autocracy. Even if someone personally benefits from this scheme, I consider it to be pretty bad for uber wealthy individuals to sabotage our democracy so that they maximally increase their wealth.
- tomcam 3y ago
  > Union contracts could mean a seat at the table on promotion decisions. That sounds like a nightmare to me.
  - UncleMeat 3y ago
    Some people think that, I guess. I'd rather have somebody who is explicitly advocating for me in the room rather than a faceless committee that is almost completely unaccountable.

by tomcam 3y ago

edent 3y ago

You are incorrect. That being said, it is dependent on two things. Some jurisdictions may only allow for a single contract. I don't know where you live, but in my part of the world there's nothing stopping you from negotiating a personal deal. But it can't undercut the union minimum. The second is the more important part - does the company want to negotiate with an individual? Most places don't. It costs time, money, and effort to do salary negotiations. Companies don't want to set individual contracts for 500 different workers.

asu_thomas 3y ago
In those worst cases, workers are almost always still better off with the union deal.

Veserv 3y ago

In the US, you are correct. By default, it is illegal for a company to negotiate terms with any individual covered by a union, even if that individual is not a dues paying member of the union. Technically, you are allowed negotiate, but it is illegal for the company to accept and it is not legally binding, so it is functionally equivalent to it being illegal to negotiate terms for yourself (assuming you want to negotiate, it is obviously better at preventing unilateral corporate abuse as the corporation would be on the hook for tricking you). I believe you can negotiate if the union lets you, but by default you can not. Also, you can not unilaterally waive union representation either, even if you are not a member, so if the union does not allow it you would need to convince 50% of the covered individuals to change the rules or dissolve the union.

danaris 3y ago

"Union" does not automatically mean "everyone doing job X gets $Y/hr, no matter what." Many unions allow for performance-based pay increases. Furthermore, if you're actually doing better (in a situation like you describe, it should be trivial to prove this), it is likely that the union would help you negotiate a better performance-based pay increase than you would be able to negotiate on your own.

UncleMeat 3y ago

How many amplifier companies actually enable their factory workers to negotiate individually effectively in ways that they couldn't with a union? Why couldn't a union negotiate terms that guarantee pay for performance in the way you want? In software, people often complain about doing the work of a certain level but not being able to be paid at that level. Union contracts could mean a seat at the table on promotion decisions. And sure, there will probably be some people who are in unusual positions where they can negotiate more effectively by themselves. Similarly, there are people who would improve their status in the United States if we had a Putin-esque autocracy. Even if someone personally benefits from this scheme, I consider it to be pretty bad for uber wealthy individuals to sabotage our democracy so that they maximally increase their wealth.

tomcam 3y ago
> Union contracts could mean a seat at the table on promotion decisions. That sounds like a nightmare to me.
- UncleMeat 3y ago
  Some people think that, I guess. I'd rather have somebody who is explicitly advocating for me in the room rather than a faceless committee that is almost completely unaccountable.