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But unions regularly eliminate even the possibility of merit-based advancement or compensation by demanding systems that assign rewards based on seniority. ...

But unions regularly eliminate even the possibility of merit-based advancement or compensation by demanding systems that assign rewards based on seniority. ...in fields where "merit" is a meaningless measure, such as factory work, housekeeping, retail, etc. In fields where merit is meaningful and measurable, like most white-collar and higher-paying jobs, unions set minimums and individual workers are free to negotiate higher pay. (See, e.g., the Hollywood guilds, the newspaper guilds, the video game unions, the sports guilds, etc. But contrast to government unions, where pay is generally lockstep based on seniority.)

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> ...in fields where "merit" is a meaningless measure, such as factory work, housekeeping, retail, etc. In what sense is it meaningless? Factory workers could have higher output, housekeeping staff could be more efficient, retail workers could make more sales. Anyone can make fewer mistakes or identify ways to improve operations. If there was genuinely no way to do a better job than anyone else then what excuse is there for seniority-based rewards or anything other than perfectly uniform compensation? > In fields where merit is meaningful and measurable, like most white-collar and higher-paying jobs, unions set minimums and individual workers are free to negotiate higher pay. In which case the union becomes a gatekeeper excluding new entrants, because it benefits existing union members to keep out anyone who might displace them in well-paying jobs, and the prospective entrants don't get a vote.
- gamblor956 3y ago
  Factory workers could have higher output, housekeeping staff could be more efficient, retail workers could make more sales. No, they couldn't. Factory workers don't control the speed of the line, so it doesn't help if one individual on a line is faster if that speed isn't replicated throughout the line. They'll end up with extra downtime, or with a backlog somewhere else. Similarly, the speed at which housekeeping staff clean depends on the cleanliness of the room before they start cleaning, and many guests, especially post-COVID, are absolutely disgusting pigs. And retail workers don't generally make sales, which is why they're classified as retail workers and not as salespeople. If there was genuinely no way to do a better job than anyone else then what excuse is there for seniority-based rewards or anything other than perfectly uniform compensation? That's your strawman. Merit being a meaningless measure doesn't mean that one employee can't do a better job than another, or that experience is irrelevant. It means that attempting to objectively measure merit is meaningless because the factors affecting that measure aren't within the employees' control. In which case the union becomes a gatekeeper excluding new entrants, because it benefits existing union members to keep out anyone who might displace them in well-paying jobs, and the prospective entrants don't get a vote. Ironically, that's what people outside of the tech community say about the leet code interviews that are specifically intended to gatekeep.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > Factory workers don't control the speed of the line, so it doesn't help if one individual on a line is faster if that speed isn't replicated throughout the line. Sure it does. They can give your station more to do if you can still do it in the allotted time. > Similarly, the speed at which housekeeping staff clean depends on the cleanliness of the room before they start cleaning, and many guests, especially post-COVID, are absolutely disgusting pigs. It also depends on the efficiency of the staff, and you can measure this on a statistical basis across a period of weeks to smooth out the effects of the initial state of the room. > And retail workers don't generally make sales, which is why they're classified as retail workers and not as salespeople. Sales is a subset of retail. But even if you're talking about workers whose only job is to ring up orders, someone can still do it more efficiently or with higher customer satisfaction. > Merit being a meaningless measure doesn't mean that one employee can't do a better job than another, or that experience is irrelevant. But what? Doing a better job than someone else is merit. Experience may be a proxy for it, but you can often measure it directly, or at least measure a more direct proxy. > Ironically, that's what people outside of the tech community say about the leet code interviews that are specifically intended to gatekeep. Leet code is an attempt to measure merit. That's the intent, even if it's imperfect. You have to use something to choose between applicants. Plausibly it could be improved. Unions imposing requirements on membership isn't even an attempt to use merit, it's just an entity with a monopoly on the right to work leveraging that monopoly for its existing members at the expense of other workers who want to be members.
    - deleted 3y ago
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VirusNewbie 3y ago
Right, you think hollywood is an example of unions helping out people based on merit. Do you know what kind of connections you need to get into a union? You think it is merit based?
- gamblor956 3y ago
  Hollywood unions you generally need to work on 1 or more productions (or for 10 or more days, depending on the union) covered by a union contract (meaning, generally, a major studio production). Some unions include work on non-union productions toward the threshold for union membership. No connections required. Indeed, I accidentally qualified for SAG membership purely on the basis being a background extra for fun, and I can qualify for IATSE Local 695 sometime in the next year if I work on another camera crew as a camera assistant when filming resumes. I got my start on the camera stuff by walking up to the camera guys when I was an extra and asking about their cameras. (There was a lot of filming activity pre-strike; they literally didn't have enough bodies and were hiring people with any sort of relevant experience.) If I didn't have a non-film day job I would already have done enough work to join the union.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    If the requirements aren't intended to gatekeep then why do they exist? Shouldn't the union want as a member anyone who wants to join? > Indeed, I accidentally qualified for SAG membership purely on the basis being a background extra for fun It appears that the SAG-AFTRA "Initiation Fee" is $3000, so if you're an aspiring actress working as a waitress for minimum wage, you need to do more than qualify unless you know someone who can get the fee waived for you (or pay it for you). > There was a lot of filming activity pre-strike; they literally didn't have enough bodies and were hiring people with any sort of relevant experience. It sounds like you had an atypical experience as a result of an unusual circumstance. How easy is it to get that kind of work when there isn't a crunch on to get everything in before a strike?

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

> ...in fields where "merit" is a meaningless measure, such as factory work, housekeeping, retail, etc. In what sense is it meaningless? Factory workers could have higher output, housekeeping staff could be more efficient, retail workers could make more sales. Anyone can make fewer mistakes or identify ways to improve operations. If there was genuinely no way to do a better job than anyone else then what excuse is there for seniority-based rewards or anything other than perfectly uniform compensation? > In fields where merit is meaningful and measurable, like most white-collar and higher-paying jobs, unions set minimums and individual workers are free to negotiate higher pay. In which case the union becomes a gatekeeper excluding new entrants, because it benefits existing union members to keep out anyone who might displace them in well-paying jobs, and the prospective entrants don't get a vote.

gamblor956 3y ago
Factory workers could have higher output, housekeeping staff could be more efficient, retail workers could make more sales. No, they couldn't. Factory workers don't control the speed of the line, so it doesn't help if one individual on a line is faster if that speed isn't replicated throughout the line. They'll end up with extra downtime, or with a backlog somewhere else. Similarly, the speed at which housekeeping staff clean depends on the cleanliness of the room before they start cleaning, and many guests, especially post-COVID, are absolutely disgusting pigs. And retail workers don't generally make sales, which is why they're classified as retail workers and not as salespeople. If there was genuinely no way to do a better job than anyone else then what excuse is there for seniority-based rewards or anything other than perfectly uniform compensation? That's your strawman. Merit being a meaningless measure doesn't mean that one employee can't do a better job than another, or that experience is irrelevant. It means that attempting to objectively measure merit is meaningless because the factors affecting that measure aren't within the employees' control. In which case the union becomes a gatekeeper excluding new entrants, because it benefits existing union members to keep out anyone who might displace them in well-paying jobs, and the prospective entrants don't get a vote. Ironically, that's what people outside of the tech community say about the leet code interviews that are specifically intended to gatekeep.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > Factory workers don't control the speed of the line, so it doesn't help if one individual on a line is faster if that speed isn't replicated throughout the line. Sure it does. They can give your station more to do if you can still do it in the allotted time. > Similarly, the speed at which housekeeping staff clean depends on the cleanliness of the room before they start cleaning, and many guests, especially post-COVID, are absolutely disgusting pigs. It also depends on the efficiency of the staff, and you can measure this on a statistical basis across a period of weeks to smooth out the effects of the initial state of the room. > And retail workers don't generally make sales, which is why they're classified as retail workers and not as salespeople. Sales is a subset of retail. But even if you're talking about workers whose only job is to ring up orders, someone can still do it more efficiently or with higher customer satisfaction. > Merit being a meaningless measure doesn't mean that one employee can't do a better job than another, or that experience is irrelevant. But what? Doing a better job than someone else is merit. Experience may be a proxy for it, but you can often measure it directly, or at least measure a more direct proxy. > Ironically, that's what people outside of the tech community say about the leet code interviews that are specifically intended to gatekeep. Leet code is an attempt to measure merit. That's the intent, even if it's imperfect. You have to use something to choose between applicants. Plausibly it could be improved. Unions imposing requirements on membership isn't even an attempt to use merit, it's just an entity with a monopoly on the right to work leveraging that monopoly for its existing members at the expense of other workers who want to be members.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

VirusNewbie 3y ago

Right, you think hollywood is an example of unions helping out people based on merit. Do you know what kind of connections you need to get into a union? You think it is merit based?

gamblor956 3y ago
Hollywood unions you generally need to work on 1 or more productions (or for 10 or more days, depending on the union) covered by a union contract (meaning, generally, a major studio production). Some unions include work on non-union productions toward the threshold for union membership. No connections required. Indeed, I accidentally qualified for SAG membership purely on the basis being a background extra for fun, and I can qualify for IATSE Local 695 sometime in the next year if I work on another camera crew as a camera assistant when filming resumes. I got my start on the camera stuff by walking up to the camera guys when I was an extra and asking about their cameras. (There was a lot of filming activity pre-strike; they literally didn't have enough bodies and were hiring people with any sort of relevant experience.) If I didn't have a non-film day job I would already have done enough work to join the union.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  If the requirements aren't intended to gatekeep then why do they exist? Shouldn't the union want as a member anyone who wants to join? > Indeed, I accidentally qualified for SAG membership purely on the basis being a background extra for fun It appears that the SAG-AFTRA "Initiation Fee" is $3000, so if you're an aspiring actress working as a waitress for minimum wage, you need to do more than qualify unless you know someone who can get the fee waived for you (or pay it for you). > There was a lot of filming activity pre-strike; they literally didn't have enough bodies and were hiring people with any sort of relevant experience. It sounds like you had an atypical experience as a result of an unusual circumstance. How easy is it to get that kind of work when there isn't a crunch on to get everything in before a strike?