4 ms·

Right, it is a way to gatekeep people in the industry and allows those who are better at politics to rise up than those who are simply good at their job.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
I don’t see how this differs from current state. You believe people getting to the top of corporate structures aren’t there because of politics and their network? Workers support unions (71% of Americans, the highest amount in 60 years) because they’re tired of having the shit kicked out of them by the American employment arrangement. Workers who are members of labor unions in the United States make 18% more than their nonunion counterparts, per the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics' annual report on union membership. > The survey also found about one in six Americans live in a household where at least one resident belongs to a union. > Of the union members surveyed, 65% cited better pay and benefits as the top reason for joining a union. The second-most-chosen reason was employee rights and representation. Your profile indicates you work at a FAANG company. I recommend some perspective on median working conditions and compensation for the average American. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/30/americans-support-labor-unions-highest-60-years https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/30/americans-su... https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > You believe people getting to the top of corporate structures aren’t there because of politics and their network? There are people who get there by a network and people who get there by merit. But unions regularly eliminate even the possibility of merit-based advancement or compensation by demanding systems that assign rewards based on seniority. > Workers who are members of labor unions in the United States make 18% more than their nonunion counterparts, per the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics' annual report on union membership. > The comparisons of earnings in this news release are on a broad level and do not control for many factors that can be important in explaining earnings differences.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - gamblor956 3y ago
    But unions regularly eliminate even the possibility of merit-based advancement or compensation by demanding systems that assign rewards based on seniority. ...in fields where "merit" is a meaningless measure, such as factory work, housekeeping, retail, etc. In fields where merit is meaningful and measurable, like most white-collar and higher-paying jobs, unions set minimums and individual workers are free to negotiate higher pay. (See, e.g., the Hollywood guilds, the newspaper guilds, the video game unions, the sports guilds, etc. But contrast to government unions, where pay is generally lockstep based on seniority.)
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > ...in fields where "merit" is a meaningless measure, such as factory work, housekeeping, retail, etc. In what sense is it meaningless? Factory workers could have higher output, housekeeping staff could be more efficient, retail workers could make more sales. Anyone can make fewer mistakes or identify ways to improve operations. If there was genuinely no way to do a better job than anyone else then what excuse is there for seniority-based rewards or anything other than perfectly uniform compensation? > In fields where merit is meaningful and measurable, like most white-collar and higher-paying jobs, unions set minimums and individual workers are free to negotiate higher pay. In which case the union becomes a gatekeeper excluding new entrants, because it benefits existing union members to keep out anyone who might displace them in well-paying jobs, and the prospective entrants don't get a vote.
      - gamblor956 3y ago
        Factory workers could have higher output, housekeeping staff could be more efficient, retail workers could make more sales. No, they couldn't. Factory workers don't control the speed of the line, so it doesn't help if one individual on a line is faster if that speed isn't replicated throughout the line. They'll end up with extra downtime, or with a backlog somewhere else. Similarly, the speed at which housekeeping staff clean depends on the cleanliness of the room before they start cleaning, and many guests, especially post-COVID, are absolutely disgusting pigs. And retail workers don't generally make sales, which is why they're classified as retail workers and not as salespeople. If there was genuinely no way to do a better job than anyone else then what excuse is there for seniority-based rewards or anything other than perfectly uniform compensation? That's your strawman. Merit being a meaningless measure doesn't mean that one employee can't do a better job than another, or that experience is irrelevant. It means that attempting to objectively measure merit is meaningless because the factors affecting that measure aren't within the employees' control. In which case the union becomes a gatekeeper excluding new entrants, because it benefits existing union members to keep out anyone who might displace them in well-paying jobs, and the prospective entrants don't get a vote. Ironically, that's what people outside of the tech community say about the leet code interviews that are specifically intended to gatekeep.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

I don’t see how this differs from current state. You believe people getting to the top of corporate structures aren’t there because of politics and their network? Workers support unions (71% of Americans, the highest amount in 60 years) because they’re tired of having the shit kicked out of them by the American employment arrangement. Workers who are members of labor unions in the United States make 18% more than their nonunion counterparts, per the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics' annual report on union membership. > The survey also found about one in six Americans live in a household where at least one resident belongs to a union. > Of the union members surveyed, 65% cited better pay and benefits as the top reason for joining a union. The second-most-chosen reason was employee rights and representation. Your profile indicates you work at a FAANG company. I recommend some perspective on median working conditions and compensation for the average American. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/30/americans-support-labor-unions-highest-60-years https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/30/americans-su... https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> You believe people getting to the top of corporate structures aren’t there because of politics and their network? There are people who get there by a network and people who get there by merit. But unions regularly eliminate even the possibility of merit-based advancement or compensation by demanding systems that assign rewards based on seniority. > Workers who are members of labor unions in the United States make 18% more than their nonunion counterparts, per the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics' annual report on union membership. > The comparisons of earnings in this news release are on a broad level and do not control for many factors that can be important in explaining earnings differences.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- gamblor956 3y ago
  But unions regularly eliminate even the possibility of merit-based advancement or compensation by demanding systems that assign rewards based on seniority. ...in fields where "merit" is a meaningless measure, such as factory work, housekeeping, retail, etc. In fields where merit is meaningful and measurable, like most white-collar and higher-paying jobs, unions set minimums and individual workers are free to negotiate higher pay. (See, e.g., the Hollywood guilds, the newspaper guilds, the video game unions, the sports guilds, etc. But contrast to government unions, where pay is generally lockstep based on seniority.)
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > ...in fields where "merit" is a meaningless measure, such as factory work, housekeeping, retail, etc. In what sense is it meaningless? Factory workers could have higher output, housekeeping staff could be more efficient, retail workers could make more sales. Anyone can make fewer mistakes or identify ways to improve operations. If there was genuinely no way to do a better job than anyone else then what excuse is there for seniority-based rewards or anything other than perfectly uniform compensation? > In fields where merit is meaningful and measurable, like most white-collar and higher-paying jobs, unions set minimums and individual workers are free to negotiate higher pay. In which case the union becomes a gatekeeper excluding new entrants, because it benefits existing union members to keep out anyone who might displace them in well-paying jobs, and the prospective entrants don't get a vote.
    - gamblor956 3y ago
      Factory workers could have higher output, housekeeping staff could be more efficient, retail workers could make more sales. No, they couldn't. Factory workers don't control the speed of the line, so it doesn't help if one individual on a line is faster if that speed isn't replicated throughout the line. They'll end up with extra downtime, or with a backlog somewhere else. Similarly, the speed at which housekeeping staff clean depends on the cleanliness of the room before they start cleaning, and many guests, especially post-COVID, are absolutely disgusting pigs. And retail workers don't generally make sales, which is why they're classified as retail workers and not as salespeople. If there was genuinely no way to do a better job than anyone else then what excuse is there for seniority-based rewards or anything other than perfectly uniform compensation? That's your strawman. Merit being a meaningless measure doesn't mean that one employee can't do a better job than another, or that experience is irrelevant. It means that attempting to objectively measure merit is meaningless because the factors affecting that measure aren't within the employees' control. In which case the union becomes a gatekeeper excluding new entrants, because it benefits existing union members to keep out anyone who might displace them in well-paying jobs, and the prospective entrants don't get a vote. Ironically, that's what people outside of the tech community say about the leet code interviews that are specifically intended to gatekeep.