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In fairness the unemployment rate in Europe is now twice what it is in the US. I think realistically, though, if you asked any business in any country "Would i

In fairness the unemployment rate in Europe is now twice what it is in the US. I think realistically, though, if you asked any business in any country "Would increasing the cost of employees make you more likely to have trouble paying employees" every business would answer yes in a survey.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
3.5% to 5.9%. Neither is high. How much of that 2.4% is jobs with liveable wages?
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > 3.5% to 5.9%. Neither is high. How much of that 2.4% is jobs with liveable wages? While the EU's unemployment rate is 5.9%, the unemployment rate of the countries who use the euro currency is 6.4% https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/08/01/eu-eurozone-unemployment-rates-remain-at-historic-low-in-june#:~:text=The%20unemployment%20rate%20for%20the,were%20unemployed%20in%20June%202023 https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/08/01/eu-eurozone-un....
  - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
    So if China had a 2% unemployment rate that would be worse unemployment because of the total people effected? And Greece's 12 percent unemployment is fine because it's only 1.2m people? Edit: did you change your argument after I replied? I swear you were taking about total numbers before.
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      > So if China had a 2% unemployment rate that would be worse unemployment because of the total people effected? And Greece's 12 percent unemployment is fine because it's only 1.2m people? 1.412B (China population) x 2% = 28.2m people in China unemployed 1.2m people in Greece unemployed Yes, % is statistics. The absolute number of people is the real impact.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
        >1.412B (China population) x 2% = 28.2m people in China unemployed >1.2m people in Greece unemployed >Yes, % is statistics. The absolute number of people is the real impact. If that's the case why isn't America copying Greece's economic policy as Greece is leaving only 1.2m unemployed?
- latency-guy2 3y ago
  Most likely the entire 2.4% in comparison to the EU.
rwj 3y ago
You shouldn't compare the unemployment rates between countries. There are different criteria for "unemployed", so measures in different countries don't measure the same thing. Labor participation rates are more comparable. The US rate is worse than the EU rate.
- dantheman 3y ago
  I would expect labor force participation rate to go down as your society gets wealthier. More education and more retirement.
  - atmavatar 3y ago
    Unfortunately, in the US, the rate has been trending upwards in the retirement age bracket for the last 20 years. https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-participation-rate.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-particip...
Buttons840 3y ago
It doesn't increase the cost of employees though. It may make them less productive; or it might make them happier and more productive.
- fasthands9 3y ago
  Compared to the tech world HN is obsessed with, a majority of businesses have a more direct relationship between labor and productivity. If you run a store in NYC that needs three workers at all time to operate, there's no getting around the fact that giving every employee time off will result in less productivity per year per employee. If you run a construction or transportation business - you need a certain number of people (maybe even legally) to operate at any time. For the tech world and other white collar jobs for which it is true that time off may help the headline above isnt as applicable. While probably still behind european counterparts, many of these jobs in the US already have real vacation time and generous remote work options.
  - robjan 3y ago
    This ignores factors such as accident, defect rate and cost of disabilities associated with not taking time off.
- jandrewrogers 3y ago
  As an observation, one difference between US and EU PTO behaviors is that everyone in the EU tends to take their PTO at the same time around July/August. In the US, it is much more spread out even when they have equivalent amounts of PTO. It creates a different business problem in Europe because everyone stops working at the same time, effectively shutting down business, whereas in the US they can operate at the same cadence all year because use of PTO is so diffuse. Some of this is probably closely connected to the reality that much of the US has nicer weather for much wider periods of time due to its lower average latitude.
  - CaptainZapp 3y ago
    > As an observation, one difference between US and EU PTO behaviors is that everyone in the EU tends to take their PTO at the same time around July/August. That is very much country dependent and can't be stated as a general rule. While this may be the case in France, where some businesses close for the entire August that's certainly not the case in, for example, Switzerland where a business may close 2 weeks in February. Most businesses don't close at all and within certain limits employees are free to take their vacation whenever it suits them.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago

3.5% to 5.9%. Neither is high. How much of that 2.4% is jobs with liveable wages?

andsoitis 3y ago
> 3.5% to 5.9%. Neither is high. How much of that 2.4% is jobs with liveable wages? While the EU's unemployment rate is 5.9%, the unemployment rate of the countries who use the euro currency is 6.4% https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/08/01/eu-eurozone-unemployment-rates-remain-at-historic-low-in-june#:~:text=The%20unemployment%20rate%20for%20the,were%20unemployed%20in%20June%202023 https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/08/01/eu-eurozone-un....
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  So if China had a 2% unemployment rate that would be worse unemployment because of the total people effected? And Greece's 12 percent unemployment is fine because it's only 1.2m people? Edit: did you change your argument after I replied? I swear you were taking about total numbers before.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > So if China had a 2% unemployment rate that would be worse unemployment because of the total people effected? And Greece's 12 percent unemployment is fine because it's only 1.2m people? 1.412B (China population) x 2% = 28.2m people in China unemployed 1.2m people in Greece unemployed Yes, % is statistics. The absolute number of people is the real impact.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
      >1.412B (China population) x 2% = 28.2m people in China unemployed >1.2m people in Greece unemployed >Yes, % is statistics. The absolute number of people is the real impact. If that's the case why isn't America copying Greece's economic policy as Greece is leaving only 1.2m unemployed?
latency-guy2 3y ago
Most likely the entire 2.4% in comparison to the EU.

rwj 3y ago

You shouldn't compare the unemployment rates between countries. There are different criteria for "unemployed", so measures in different countries don't measure the same thing. Labor participation rates are more comparable. The US rate is worse than the EU rate.

dantheman 3y ago
I would expect labor force participation rate to go down as your society gets wealthier. More education and more retirement.
- atmavatar 3y ago
  Unfortunately, in the US, the rate has been trending upwards in the retirement age bracket for the last 20 years. https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-participation-rate.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-particip...

Buttons840 3y ago

It doesn't increase the cost of employees though. It may make them less productive; or it might make them happier and more productive.

fasthands9 3y ago
Compared to the tech world HN is obsessed with, a majority of businesses have a more direct relationship between labor and productivity. If you run a store in NYC that needs three workers at all time to operate, there's no getting around the fact that giving every employee time off will result in less productivity per year per employee. If you run a construction or transportation business - you need a certain number of people (maybe even legally) to operate at any time. For the tech world and other white collar jobs for which it is true that time off may help the headline above isnt as applicable. While probably still behind european counterparts, many of these jobs in the US already have real vacation time and generous remote work options.
- robjan 3y ago
  This ignores factors such as accident, defect rate and cost of disabilities associated with not taking time off.
jandrewrogers 3y ago
As an observation, one difference between US and EU PTO behaviors is that everyone in the EU tends to take their PTO at the same time around July/August. In the US, it is much more spread out even when they have equivalent amounts of PTO. It creates a different business problem in Europe because everyone stops working at the same time, effectively shutting down business, whereas in the US they can operate at the same cadence all year because use of PTO is so diffuse. Some of this is probably closely connected to the reality that much of the US has nicer weather for much wider periods of time due to its lower average latitude.
- CaptainZapp 3y ago
  > As an observation, one difference between US and EU PTO behaviors is that everyone in the EU tends to take their PTO at the same time around July/August. That is very much country dependent and can't be stated as a general rule. While this may be the case in France, where some businesses close for the entire August that's certainly not the case in, for example, Switzerland where a business may close 2 weeks in February. Most businesses don't close at all and within certain limits employees are free to take their vacation whenever it suits them.