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Our current level of beef consumption is unsustainable and science has confirmed that cow methane emissions are a significant problem for climate change. This i

Our current level of beef consumption is unsustainable and science has confirmed that cow methane emissions are a significant problem for climate change. This is not the same thing as "it would be good for the climate if cows went extinct because the entire environment is unsuitable to them".

adamrezich 3y ago
so the only way to save the world from the seemingly-inevitable doom spectre of climate change is to have not too many cows, but also not too few? we need to get together as an entire global species and determine and strictly maintain some Optimal Bovine Population Threshold?
- chrisfosterelli 3y ago
  I'm not sure if that's logistically the best way, but yes, a healthy ecosystem is a matter of balance. Extremes tend to be bad. For another example, climate change is ultimately because we have too many greenhouse gases, but if we had no greenhouse gases, everyone on earth would freeze to death and it would be an icy wasteland. The problem is things are way out of balance. In essence, I'm not saying that our current meat practices are ideal. I'm saying is that it's just not a simply self-correcting problem. Cattle contribute about 14% of emissions which means that it won't reduce enough to solve climate change by itself, it'll just mean no cows, then no grasslands, and then no species that depend on grasslands. It'll just be another gradually worsening affect of climate change, not a self-invoked solution. The solution to anything with the ecosystem is a sustainable balance.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Do you know how many cattle we do have? https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2204892120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2204892120 The total mammal biomass: - livestock (≈630 Mt) - humans (≈390 Mt) - wild marine mammals (≈40 Mt) - terrestrial wild mammals (≈20 Mt) Do you know how much land animal agriculture occupies (cattle being the most land-demanding)? https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land-Use-01.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land... https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets Do you know that animal species have experienced a 70% decline in just last 50 years, that we're driving nearly one million species to extinction, that we're in the sixth mass extinction which we'll manage in just 100 years probably, and that cattle is the main driver? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 Humans are driving one million species to extinction - landmark United Nations-backed report finds that agriculture is one of the biggest threats to Earth’s ecosystems. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/brv.12974 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/brv.12974 More losers than winners: investigating Anthropocene defaunation through the diversity of population trends https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-70-of-animal-populations-wiped-out-since-1970-report-reveals-aoe https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-7... Animal populations experience average decline of almost 70% since 1970, report reveals https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ Biodiversity conservation: The key is reducing meat consumption https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-glob... Our global food system is the primary driver of biodiversity loss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_boundaries#Nine_boundaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_boundaries#Nine_boun... > we need to get together as an entire global species and determine and maintain some Optimal Bovine Population Threshold Yes, it's zero.
  - adamrezich 3y ago
    if your solution to a problem involves the complete global forced extinction of a species, not only does it show that somewhere along the way you were somehow misguided—it also shows that you're not exactly living in the same shared reality that the rest of us live in.
    - myshpa 3y ago
      > solution to a problem involves the complete global forced extinction of a species I've never argued for a forced extinction; that's just silly. We're driving numerous species to extinction by favoring only a few animal species and devastating ecosystems to support their breeding and proliferation. Let's argue that we should maintain an equivalent population of cows and water buffalos. Would that be enough? We could allow these cows to freely roam on grasslands, reserving the remaining grazing lands for other animals whose habitats we have taken from them. Seems fair? > you're not exactly living in the same shared reality that the rest of us live in Thank you ... I don't want to. I couldn't look my children in the eyes when they'll learn what we've done with the world.
deleted 3y ago
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adamrezich 3y ago

so the only way to save the world from the seemingly-inevitable doom spectre of climate change is to have not too many cows, but also not too few? we need to get together as an entire global species and determine and strictly maintain some Optimal Bovine Population Threshold?

chrisfosterelli 3y ago
I'm not sure if that's logistically the best way, but yes, a healthy ecosystem is a matter of balance. Extremes tend to be bad. For another example, climate change is ultimately because we have too many greenhouse gases, but if we had no greenhouse gases, everyone on earth would freeze to death and it would be an icy wasteland. The problem is things are way out of balance. In essence, I'm not saying that our current meat practices are ideal. I'm saying is that it's just not a simply self-correcting problem. Cattle contribute about 14% of emissions which means that it won't reduce enough to solve climate change by itself, it'll just mean no cows, then no grasslands, and then no species that depend on grasslands. It'll just be another gradually worsening affect of climate change, not a self-invoked solution. The solution to anything with the ecosystem is a sustainable balance.
myshpa 3y ago
Do you know how many cattle we do have? https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2204892120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2204892120 The total mammal biomass: - livestock (≈630 Mt) - humans (≈390 Mt) - wild marine mammals (≈40 Mt) - terrestrial wild mammals (≈20 Mt) Do you know how much land animal agriculture occupies (cattle being the most land-demanding)? https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land-Use-01.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land... https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets Do you know that animal species have experienced a 70% decline in just last 50 years, that we're driving nearly one million species to extinction, that we're in the sixth mass extinction which we'll manage in just 100 years probably, and that cattle is the main driver? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 Humans are driving one million species to extinction - landmark United Nations-backed report finds that agriculture is one of the biggest threats to Earth’s ecosystems. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/brv.12974 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/brv.12974 More losers than winners: investigating Anthropocene defaunation through the diversity of population trends https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-70-of-animal-populations-wiped-out-since-1970-report-reveals-aoe https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-7... Animal populations experience average decline of almost 70% since 1970, report reveals https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ Biodiversity conservation: The key is reducing meat consumption https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-glob... Our global food system is the primary driver of biodiversity loss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_boundaries#Nine_boundaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_boundaries#Nine_boun... > we need to get together as an entire global species and determine and maintain some Optimal Bovine Population Threshold Yes, it's zero.
- adamrezich 3y ago
  if your solution to a problem involves the complete global forced extinction of a species, not only does it show that somewhere along the way you were somehow misguided—it also shows that you're not exactly living in the same shared reality that the rest of us live in.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    > solution to a problem involves the complete global forced extinction of a species I've never argued for a forced extinction; that's just silly. We're driving numerous species to extinction by favoring only a few animal species and devastating ecosystems to support their breeding and proliferation. Let's argue that we should maintain an equivalent population of cows and water buffalos. Would that be enough? We could allow these cows to freely roam on grasslands, reserving the remaining grazing lands for other animals whose habitats we have taken from them. Seems fair? > you're not exactly living in the same shared reality that the rest of us live in Thank you ... I don't want to. I couldn't look my children in the eyes when they'll learn what we've done with the world.

deleted 3y ago

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