3 ms·

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Cows have a place in the natural grasslands cycle and if climate change makes those grasslands uninhabitable to the

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Cows have a place in the natural grasslands cycle and if climate change makes those grasslands uninhabitable to them then that is bad. Natural forests should remain natural forests and converting them to grasslands to satisfy our unsustainable meat habit is also bad. Both of these can be true.

myshpa 3y ago
> Natural forests should remain natural forests and converting them to grasslands to satisfy our unsustainable meat habit is also bad. True > Cows have a place in the natural grasslands cycle Not really true. Cows graze on different plants than bison and have different grazing habits. It's not the same, and we can't really replace bizon with cattle, no matter how much would cattle farmers want us to believe that. https://grist.org/climate-energy/cattle-grazing-is-a-climate-disaster-and-youre-paying-for-it/ https://grist.org/climate-energy/cattle-grazing-is-a-climate... https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/publications/grazed-and-confused/ https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/publications/grazed-and-co... > if climate change makes those grasslands uninhabitable to them then that is bad We can safeguard these grasslands by reforesting vast areas of livable land. If you truly support preserving these native grasslands, you'd likely advocate halting crop production, reintroducing bison, and protecting them through pasture reforestation for climate change mitigation. Agreed? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotic_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotic_pump https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/8/085002/meta https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/8/08... Climate impact of beef: an analysis considering multiple time scales and production methods without use of global warming potentials https://journals.plos.org/climate/article?id=10.1371/journal.pclm.0000010 https://journals.plos.org/climate/article?id=10.1371/journal... Rapid global phaseout of animal agriculture has the potential to stabilize greenhouse gas levels for 30 years and offset 68 percent of CO2 emissions this century
- chrisfosterelli 3y ago
  Cows absolutely have a place in the grasslands cycle and saying they don't is simply brushing away decades of conservation grazing research. You seem to be under the impression that every grassland is just a forest that humans have stripped bare but grasslands are naturally occurring in every continent except Antartica and cover a massive area of the Earth, much of which is land completely unsuitable to agriculture. Even for the portions that are suitable, I don't subscribe to the notion that we are going to solve the climate crisis by paving over every square inch of natural habitat with soy fields; in part because I think that would be an ecological catastrophe but mostly because absolutely nobody is going to go along with that plan. It's not a solution if you can't convince anyone of it. Similarly, based on your comments in this thread I don't think you're going to be convinced of any moderation on your position so I'm not sure there's much more benefit to discussing.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    > Cows absolutely have a place in the grasslands cycle and saying they don't is simply brushing away decades of conservation grazing research If cows are required for a conservation of some ecosystems (and I doubt it, sources?), let's have those cows. But those are not the reasons for keeping the remaining 99.99%. > You seem to be under the impression that every grassland is just a forest that humans have stripped bare No, I'm not. > I don't subscribe to the notion that we are going to solve the climate crisis by paving over every square inch of natural habitat with soy fields I don't either, but we're doing exactly that right now ... for the cattle. 76% of soy is grown for animal feed. https://ourworldindata.org/soy https://ourworldindata.org/soy We would need just 25% of land to feed everyone on plant based diets. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares And we have to switch to those diets ... because when those developing countries develop, they'll want to eat what we do. If everyone were to adopt the western diet, we would need 5+ earths, and we don't have those. We currently import a lot of that meat / feed from other countries, but that's unsustainable. https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/917471 https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/917471 Feeding 10 billion people by 2050 within planetary limits may be achievable A global shift towards healthy and more plant-based diets, halving food loss and waste, and improving farming practices and technologies are required to feed 10 billion people sustainably by 2050, a new study finds > It's not a solution if you can't convince anyone of it It'd be enough to remove subsidies for polluting sectors. Animal ag would be deeply unprofitable without those, and higher prices would make those products unattainable to most. > I don't think you're going to be convinced of any moderation on your position No, I'm not. Animal agriculture is not necessary in this day and age. It's extremely destructive and is an obstacle to the mitigation of climate change and other aspects of overshoot, such as reforestation and dwindling biodiversity. > so I'm not sure there's much more benefit to discussing As you wish.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > Cows absolutely have a place in the grasslands cycle > grasslands are naturally occurring in every continent Not all cattle are equal and not all grasslands evolved with cattle. In the US bison and cattle aren't quite the same, and in Australia there were no cattle until introduced by Europeans .. now Australia has feral cattle damaging the natural grasslands: https://news.csu.edu.au/feature/are-feral-cattle-the-brumbies-of-the-northern-territory https://news.csu.edu.au/feature/are-feral-cattle-the-brumbie...

myshpa 3y ago

> Natural forests should remain natural forests and converting them to grasslands to satisfy our unsustainable meat habit is also bad. True > Cows have a place in the natural grasslands cycle Not really true. Cows graze on different plants than bison and have different grazing habits. It's not the same, and we can't really replace bizon with cattle, no matter how much would cattle farmers want us to believe that. https://grist.org/climate-energy/cattle-grazing-is-a-climate-disaster-and-youre-paying-for-it/ https://grist.org/climate-energy/cattle-grazing-is-a-climate... https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/publications/grazed-and-confused/ https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/publications/grazed-and-co... > if climate change makes those grasslands uninhabitable to them then that is bad We can safeguard these grasslands by reforesting vast areas of livable land. If you truly support preserving these native grasslands, you'd likely advocate halting crop production, reintroducing bison, and protecting them through pasture reforestation for climate change mitigation. Agreed? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotic_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotic_pump https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/8/085002/meta https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/8/08... Climate impact of beef: an analysis considering multiple time scales and production methods without use of global warming potentials https://journals.plos.org/climate/article?id=10.1371/journal.pclm.0000010 https://journals.plos.org/climate/article?id=10.1371/journal... Rapid global phaseout of animal agriculture has the potential to stabilize greenhouse gas levels for 30 years and offset 68 percent of CO2 emissions this century

chrisfosterelli 3y ago
Cows absolutely have a place in the grasslands cycle and saying they don't is simply brushing away decades of conservation grazing research. You seem to be under the impression that every grassland is just a forest that humans have stripped bare but grasslands are naturally occurring in every continent except Antartica and cover a massive area of the Earth, much of which is land completely unsuitable to agriculture. Even for the portions that are suitable, I don't subscribe to the notion that we are going to solve the climate crisis by paving over every square inch of natural habitat with soy fields; in part because I think that would be an ecological catastrophe but mostly because absolutely nobody is going to go along with that plan. It's not a solution if you can't convince anyone of it. Similarly, based on your comments in this thread I don't think you're going to be convinced of any moderation on your position so I'm not sure there's much more benefit to discussing.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > Cows absolutely have a place in the grasslands cycle and saying they don't is simply brushing away decades of conservation grazing research If cows are required for a conservation of some ecosystems (and I doubt it, sources?), let's have those cows. But those are not the reasons for keeping the remaining 99.99%. > You seem to be under the impression that every grassland is just a forest that humans have stripped bare No, I'm not. > I don't subscribe to the notion that we are going to solve the climate crisis by paving over every square inch of natural habitat with soy fields I don't either, but we're doing exactly that right now ... for the cattle. 76% of soy is grown for animal feed. https://ourworldindata.org/soy https://ourworldindata.org/soy We would need just 25% of land to feed everyone on plant based diets. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares And we have to switch to those diets ... because when those developing countries develop, they'll want to eat what we do. If everyone were to adopt the western diet, we would need 5+ earths, and we don't have those. We currently import a lot of that meat / feed from other countries, but that's unsustainable. https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/917471 https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/917471 Feeding 10 billion people by 2050 within planetary limits may be achievable A global shift towards healthy and more plant-based diets, halving food loss and waste, and improving farming practices and technologies are required to feed 10 billion people sustainably by 2050, a new study finds > It's not a solution if you can't convince anyone of it It'd be enough to remove subsidies for polluting sectors. Animal ag would be deeply unprofitable without those, and higher prices would make those products unattainable to most. > I don't think you're going to be convinced of any moderation on your position No, I'm not. Animal agriculture is not necessary in this day and age. It's extremely destructive and is an obstacle to the mitigation of climate change and other aspects of overshoot, such as reforestation and dwindling biodiversity. > so I'm not sure there's much more benefit to discussing As you wish.
- defrost 3y ago
  > Cows absolutely have a place in the grasslands cycle > grasslands are naturally occurring in every continent Not all cattle are equal and not all grasslands evolved with cattle. In the US bison and cattle aren't quite the same, and in Australia there were no cattle until introduced by Europeans .. now Australia has feral cattle damaging the natural grasslands: https://news.csu.edu.au/feature/are-feral-cattle-the-brumbies-of-the-northern-territory https://news.csu.edu.au/feature/are-feral-cattle-the-brumbie...