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but what about their farts though? I'm pretty sure the science has confirmed that cows are a net climate negative, on account of all the farting they're always

but what about their farts though? I'm pretty sure the science has confirmed that cows are a net climate negative, on account of all the farting they're always doing.

chrisfosterelli 3y ago
Our current level of beef consumption is unsustainable and science has confirmed that cow methane emissions are a significant problem for climate change. This is not the same thing as "it would be good for the climate if cows went extinct because the entire environment is unsuitable to them".
- adamrezich 3y ago
  so the only way to save the world from the seemingly-inevitable doom spectre of climate change is to have not too many cows, but also not too few? we need to get together as an entire global species and determine and strictly maintain some Optimal Bovine Population Threshold?
  - chrisfosterelli 3y ago
    I'm not sure if that's logistically the best way, but yes, a healthy ecosystem is a matter of balance. Extremes tend to be bad. For another example, climate change is ultimately because we have too many greenhouse gases, but if we had no greenhouse gases, everyone on earth would freeze to death and it would be an icy wasteland. The problem is things are way out of balance. In essence, I'm not saying that our current meat practices are ideal. I'm saying is that it's just not a simply self-correcting problem. Cattle contribute about 14% of emissions which means that it won't reduce enough to solve climate change by itself, it'll just mean no cows, then no grasslands, and then no species that depend on grasslands. It'll just be another gradually worsening affect of climate change, not a self-invoked solution. The solution to anything with the ecosystem is a sustainable balance.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    Do you know how many cattle we do have? https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2204892120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2204892120 The total mammal biomass: - livestock (≈630 Mt) - humans (≈390 Mt) - wild marine mammals (≈40 Mt) - terrestrial wild mammals (≈20 Mt) Do you know how much land animal agriculture occupies (cattle being the most land-demanding)? https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land-Use-01.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land... https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets Do you know that animal species have experienced a 70% decline in just last 50 years, that we're driving nearly one million species to extinction, that we're in the sixth mass extinction which we'll manage in just 100 years probably, and that cattle is the main driver? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 Humans are driving one million species to extinction - landmark United Nations-backed report finds that agriculture is one of the biggest threats to Earth’s ecosystems. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/brv.12974 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/brv.12974 More losers than winners: investigating Anthropocene defaunation through the diversity of population trends https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-70-of-animal-populations-wiped-out-since-1970-report-reveals-aoe https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-7... Animal populations experience average decline of almost 70% since 1970, report reveals https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ Biodiversity conservation: The key is reducing meat consumption https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-glob... Our global food system is the primary driver of biodiversity loss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_boundaries#Nine_boundaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_boundaries#Nine_boun... > we need to get together as an entire global species and determine and maintain some Optimal Bovine Population Threshold Yes, it's zero.
    - adamrezich 3y ago
      if your solution to a problem involves the complete global forced extinction of a species, not only does it show that somewhere along the way you were somehow misguided—it also shows that you're not exactly living in the same shared reality that the rest of us live in.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
myshpa 3y ago
Cattle's main problem is not their farts; that's probably just a greenwashing attempt to discredit a critique of animal agriculture and the need to switch to plant-based diets. Some effects of animal / cattle farming: Greenhouse Gas Emissions - Cattle farming is a significant contributor to methane emissions, a potent greenhouse gas that contributes to global warming. Burps and manure decomposition. Deforestation: land is cleared for cattle grazing and to grow feed crops, leading to deforestation and habitat loss. 50+% of pastures were originally forests. Loss of Biodiversity: the expansion of cattle farming leads to loss of biodiversity as natural habitats are converted into grazing lands, animal ag. is the biggest driver of biodiversity loss. Water Usage: cattle farming requires substantial water resources for drinking, irrigation, and feed crops, contributing to water scarcity in some regions. Land Degradation: overgrazing by cattle can lead to soil erosion and degradation, reducing land's fertility and ability to support vegetation. Antibiotic Use: cattle are often raised with the use of antibiotics, contributing to the development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Waste Management: handling and managing the large quantities of manure produced by cattle is a challenge, leading to potential pollution and odor issues. Oceanic Dead Zones: runoff from cattle farms containing excess nutrients contributes to the creation of oceanic dead zones—areas of water with low oxygen levels that can't support marine life. Eutrophication: nutrient-rich runoff from cattle operations causes eutrophication in water bodies, leading to excessive plant growth, oxygen depletion, and harm to aquatic ecosystems. Energy Intensity: raising cattle requires significant energy inputs for feed production, transportation, and processing. Land Use Competition: competition for land between cattle farming and crop production can exacerbate food security challenges. Indirect Environmental Impact: cattle farming's environmental impact extends to the entire supply chain, including transportation, processing, and distribution of beef products.

but what about their farts though? I'm pretty sure the science has confirmed that cows are a net climate negative, on account of all the farting they're always doing.

chrisfosterelli 3y ago

Our current level of beef consumption is unsustainable and science has confirmed that cow methane emissions are a significant problem for climate change. This is not the same thing as "it would be good for the climate if cows went extinct because the entire environment is unsuitable to them".

adamrezich 3y ago
so the only way to save the world from the seemingly-inevitable doom spectre of climate change is to have not too many cows, but also not too few? we need to get together as an entire global species and determine and strictly maintain some Optimal Bovine Population Threshold?
- chrisfosterelli 3y ago
  I'm not sure if that's logistically the best way, but yes, a healthy ecosystem is a matter of balance. Extremes tend to be bad. For another example, climate change is ultimately because we have too many greenhouse gases, but if we had no greenhouse gases, everyone on earth would freeze to death and it would be an icy wasteland. The problem is things are way out of balance. In essence, I'm not saying that our current meat practices are ideal. I'm saying is that it's just not a simply self-correcting problem. Cattle contribute about 14% of emissions which means that it won't reduce enough to solve climate change by itself, it'll just mean no cows, then no grasslands, and then no species that depend on grasslands. It'll just be another gradually worsening affect of climate change, not a self-invoked solution. The solution to anything with the ecosystem is a sustainable balance.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Do you know how many cattle we do have? https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2204892120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2204892120 The total mammal biomass: - livestock (≈630 Mt) - humans (≈390 Mt) - wild marine mammals (≈40 Mt) - terrestrial wild mammals (≈20 Mt) Do you know how much land animal agriculture occupies (cattle being the most land-demanding)? https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land-Use-01.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land... https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets Do you know that animal species have experienced a 70% decline in just last 50 years, that we're driving nearly one million species to extinction, that we're in the sixth mass extinction which we'll manage in just 100 years probably, and that cattle is the main driver? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01448-4 Humans are driving one million species to extinction - landmark United Nations-backed report finds that agriculture is one of the biggest threats to Earth’s ecosystems. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/brv.12974 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/brv.12974 More losers than winners: investigating Anthropocene defaunation through the diversity of population trends https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-70-of-animal-populations-wiped-out-since-1970-report-reveals-aoe https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/13/almost-7... Animal populations experience average decline of almost 70% since 1970, report reveals https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ Biodiversity conservation: The key is reducing meat consumption https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-glob... Our global food system is the primary driver of biodiversity loss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_boundaries#Nine_boundaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_boundaries#Nine_boun... > we need to get together as an entire global species and determine and maintain some Optimal Bovine Population Threshold Yes, it's zero.
  - adamrezich 3y ago
    if your solution to a problem involves the complete global forced extinction of a species, not only does it show that somewhere along the way you were somehow misguided—it also shows that you're not exactly living in the same shared reality that the rest of us live in.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

myshpa 3y ago

Cattle's main problem is not their farts; that's probably just a greenwashing attempt to discredit a critique of animal agriculture and the need to switch to plant-based diets. Some effects of animal / cattle farming: Greenhouse Gas Emissions - Cattle farming is a significant contributor to methane emissions, a potent greenhouse gas that contributes to global warming. Burps and manure decomposition. Deforestation: land is cleared for cattle grazing and to grow feed crops, leading to deforestation and habitat loss. 50+% of pastures were originally forests. Loss of Biodiversity: the expansion of cattle farming leads to loss of biodiversity as natural habitats are converted into grazing lands, animal ag. is the biggest driver of biodiversity loss. Water Usage: cattle farming requires substantial water resources for drinking, irrigation, and feed crops, contributing to water scarcity in some regions. Land Degradation: overgrazing by cattle can lead to soil erosion and degradation, reducing land's fertility and ability to support vegetation. Antibiotic Use: cattle are often raised with the use of antibiotics, contributing to the development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Waste Management: handling and managing the large quantities of manure produced by cattle is a challenge, leading to potential pollution and odor issues. Oceanic Dead Zones: runoff from cattle farms containing excess nutrients contributes to the creation of oceanic dead zones—areas of water with low oxygen levels that can't support marine life. Eutrophication: nutrient-rich runoff from cattle operations causes eutrophication in water bodies, leading to excessive plant growth, oxygen depletion, and harm to aquatic ecosystems. Energy Intensity: raising cattle requires significant energy inputs for feed production, transportation, and processing. Land Use Competition: competition for land between cattle farming and crop production can exacerbate food security challenges. Indirect Environmental Impact: cattle farming's environmental impact extends to the entire supply chain, including transportation, processing, and distribution of beef products.