5 ms·

About 20 years ago I was an openbsd and freebsd admin, webhosting mostly. Then the rest of my maybe 16 year career was debian with some sprinkles of centos/rhel

by swozey 3y ago

About 20 years ago I was an openbsd and freebsd admin, webhosting mostly. Then the rest of my maybe 16 year career was debian with some sprinkles of centos/rhel What would bring me to bsd today? Not in a negative way at all, I'm curious what people love about it. I barely remember much about it. I loved pf over iptables but I don't remember why. It has jailed containers which.. I think people still love? I'm not sure. I'm reading about appjails and these sound interesting.

enriquto 3y ago
For me the main point of bsd or small linuxes over debians/redhats is that running htop fills just one third of the screen and I can understand what each program does right away. It fills me with a sense of control and tranquility that just isn't there in more complex setups.
- swozey 3y ago
  That's a great point. Would you consider yourself a minimalist in general? I think I'm the opposite. I'm one of those people who installs every (secure and vetted) plugin/extension/app that makes my life/work "easier." I have a ridiculous amount of vscode/intellij/obsidian plugins that I use. I'm sure if I used emacs/vim it'd be the same. Just as an example that's super frowned upon, I install about 5-10 various packages like jq, htop, net-utils, bash, httpie, things like that into each oci container I build. I also have the exact same customized ~/.bashrc with aliases and a motd that tells me the distro and outdated packages and what not in all of the oci containers I build. Also a custom ~/.nanorc with syntax highlighting so I don't have to constantly write nano -l (everyone will hate me for using nano, I know). I have to troubleshoot containers a lot. This example I'm posting here went from a 150Mb container to 203 with my "debug" packages. And each time I exec into one I get a nice little motd that makes fixing things so much faster for me. A 203Mb container has absolutely no effect on my autoscaling infrastructure. We watch for anomalies and immediately scale up and have the oci images cached on the clusters. I used to make these little 30mb scratch go containers that had literally nothing but the app. It was so annoying having to troubleshoot them and the benefit seemed so not worth it. Not having bash installed is absolutely horrendous. Being forced to use sh. I can't use arrow keys to move the cursor or up and down to go through history. I think ctrl-r doesnt even work. I would get absolutely screamed at by the greybeard genius nix admins I used to work with. But I make the infra standards now.. Package attack vectors are definitely a concern. My containers go through a rigorous security test while being built. https://imgur.com/MkyuyVS https://imgur.com/MkyuyVS
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Nothing wrong installing your favorite packages. Think the grandparent is talking about daemons running at startup.
    - abwizz 3y ago
      seconded process list and mount table on oldschool unixes "fit's in head" conveying familiarity and trust while laying a foundation for security
  - djbusby 3y ago
    Got your dotfiles shared anywhere?
- LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
  Until you disable hide kernel threads, or threads in general.
_lqaf 3y ago
I run FreeBSD for my home storage server, have for almost a decade now. I've also used it for various other things here and there, but that's my major personal use. The best thing about it is that it is boring, completely predictable outside of hardware faults, and dependable. If you know how to competently manage it, which isn't hard, it is a rock. Also nice is that FreeBSD isn't involved in vendor tugs-of-war that result in the constant stream of bullshit changes* - the network config format doesn't change every version, people aren't playing political games with init, etc. All of which mean far fewer goofy make-work surprises. And the quality of their releases is still very high. I consider them one of top open source projects, period, in terms of qualities others should emulate for better results. As with anything, it isn't for everything. If you need the latest version of whatever is trendy this month, you should run Linux. But if your use case benefits from stability and ease of administration, FreeBSD rocks. * What is bullshit in my environment may not be in yours, etc.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  I don't think it's any more stable, dependable or predictable than any similarly mature Linux distro. It's just a preference, perhaps with a sliver of contrarianism.
  - hedora 3y ago
    Can you name any production-quality / daily-driver linux distros that have used the same network config, init, logging, etc for the last 5 years, let alone the last 3 decades (like the BSDs have)? I never felt comfortable managing openbsd, but linux has repeatedly and gratuitously changed all the management tools, so now it’s easier for me to get around an openbsd box, despite using Linux daily, and openbsd maybe twice a year. (It’s a serious question. I’m strongly considering switching to one of the bsd’s at this point.)
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      > Can you name any production-quality / daily-driver linux distros that have used the same network config, init, logging, etc for the last 5 years, let alone the last 3 decades (like the BSDs have)? Are you not so subtly referring to the systemd fiasco? That was about, if not over 10 years ago. I also don't think it matters. Change is not a bad thing, and that change is not as hectic or constant as you seem to imply. If you really want a Linux distro that hasn't changed at all in the past 30 years, Slackware might be your bets bet, but I don't think that 'having not changed in the past 30 years' really makes sense as a metric. Personally, I'm a fan of Alpine and Void Linux, and I also run NetBSD. FreeBSD seems too 'messy' as someone that likes minimalism, and OpenBSD's security focus is misplaced IMO.
pizzafeelsright 3y ago
Same same. Today I'm indifferent to Linux flavors. I am not sure why I would use FreeBSD although I recall the community being very helpful.
somat 3y ago
I use openbsd in a desktop role, which is a but unusual. I like it because it is comfortable in a way I don't find in linux or windows. I think this is because I understand it. A situation I never feel on windows. you are sitting on so much complexity, it is fine when you are in the happy path where things are working, But I start to get nervous when pondering not only how much I don't know about windows but on how much I can not know. Linux is much better, but still has too many moving parts. I don't think of openbsd as a minimal system, in fact it is almost the opposite openbsd crams more into it's base distribution than most linux distos. But the openbsd services tend to be small and well behaved and well documented., I am a bit biased but I tend to think of openbsd as the best bsd for desktop use. It is not the fastest, it does not have the best filesystems, but damn if everything does not come together in a really comfortable package.
mekster 3y ago
The fact BSD can't run Docker with its vast ecosystem is already a show stopper. Also having little glitches by tiny differences in shell handling make your already tuned Linux dotfiles incompatible that adds to the annoyances. And then I don't really get anything over Linux. pf is good but I'm just mostly using ufw and not running a router in the cloud that requires more than port handling. Ubuntu supports zfs in a very seamless way that I just don't find a reason to use BSD anymore unfortunately. It's probably only driven by companies that don't want to expose their code via GPL.
- olgeni 3y ago
  Yep, what other reason could there be.
- gtewallace 3y ago
  a couple projects underway for containers, still wip but promising. https://hackmd.io/7BIT_khIRQyPAe4EdiigHg https://hackmd.io/7BIT_khIRQyPAe4EdiigHg https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - mekster 3y ago
    If BSD can run existing Docker ecosystem, then suddenly FreeBSD becomes a candidate for use. Though I don't find anything better than Linux, it's not lacking either.
vermaden 3y ago
A lot have happened for these 15-20 years: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36972903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36972903 ... and that can give You another reason 'why': - https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2020/09/07/quare-freebsd/ https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2020/09/07/quare-freebsd/ ... but if you are happy where You are - then stay where You are. I moved to FreeBSD because I was not happy on Linux. Regards, vermaden
- panta 3y ago
  Excellent article! Re-ignited my intention to use freebsd.
  - vermaden 3y ago
    Thank You!

by swozey 3y ago

enriquto 3y ago

For me the main point of bsd or small linuxes over debians/redhats is that running htop fills just one third of the screen and I can understand what each program does right away. It fills me with a sense of control and tranquility that just isn't there in more complex setups.

swozey 3y ago
That's a great point. Would you consider yourself a minimalist in general? I think I'm the opposite. I'm one of those people who installs every (secure and vetted) plugin/extension/app that makes my life/work "easier." I have a ridiculous amount of vscode/intellij/obsidian plugins that I use. I'm sure if I used emacs/vim it'd be the same. Just as an example that's super frowned upon, I install about 5-10 various packages like jq, htop, net-utils, bash, httpie, things like that into each oci container I build. I also have the exact same customized ~/.bashrc with aliases and a motd that tells me the distro and outdated packages and what not in all of the oci containers I build. Also a custom ~/.nanorc with syntax highlighting so I don't have to constantly write nano -l (everyone will hate me for using nano, I know). I have to troubleshoot containers a lot. This example I'm posting here went from a 150Mb container to 203 with my "debug" packages. And each time I exec into one I get a nice little motd that makes fixing things so much faster for me. A 203Mb container has absolutely no effect on my autoscaling infrastructure. We watch for anomalies and immediately scale up and have the oci images cached on the clusters. I used to make these little 30mb scratch go containers that had literally nothing but the app. It was so annoying having to troubleshoot them and the benefit seemed so not worth it. Not having bash installed is absolutely horrendous. Being forced to use sh. I can't use arrow keys to move the cursor or up and down to go through history. I think ctrl-r doesnt even work. I would get absolutely screamed at by the greybeard genius nix admins I used to work with. But I make the infra standards now.. Package attack vectors are definitely a concern. My containers go through a rigorous security test while being built. https://imgur.com/MkyuyVS https://imgur.com/MkyuyVS
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Nothing wrong installing your favorite packages. Think the grandparent is talking about daemons running at startup.
  - abwizz 3y ago
    seconded process list and mount table on oldschool unixes "fit's in head" conveying familiarity and trust while laying a foundation for security
- djbusby 3y ago
  Got your dotfiles shared anywhere?
LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
Until you disable hide kernel threads, or threads in general.

_lqaf 3y ago

I run FreeBSD for my home storage server, have for almost a decade now. I've also used it for various other things here and there, but that's my major personal use. The best thing about it is that it is boring, completely predictable outside of hardware faults, and dependable. If you know how to competently manage it, which isn't hard, it is a rock. Also nice is that FreeBSD isn't involved in vendor tugs-of-war that result in the constant stream of bullshit changes* - the network config format doesn't change every version, people aren't playing political games with init, etc. All of which mean far fewer goofy make-work surprises. And the quality of their releases is still very high. I consider them one of top open source projects, period, in terms of qualities others should emulate for better results. As with anything, it isn't for everything. If you need the latest version of whatever is trendy this month, you should run Linux. But if your use case benefits from stability and ease of administration, FreeBSD rocks. * What is bullshit in my environment may not be in yours, etc.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
I don't think it's any more stable, dependable or predictable than any similarly mature Linux distro. It's just a preference, perhaps with a sliver of contrarianism.
- hedora 3y ago
  Can you name any production-quality / daily-driver linux distros that have used the same network config, init, logging, etc for the last 5 years, let alone the last 3 decades (like the BSDs have)? I never felt comfortable managing openbsd, but linux has repeatedly and gratuitously changed all the management tools, so now it’s easier for me to get around an openbsd box, despite using Linux daily, and openbsd maybe twice a year. (It’s a serious question. I’m strongly considering switching to one of the bsd’s at this point.)
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    > Can you name any production-quality / daily-driver linux distros that have used the same network config, init, logging, etc for the last 5 years, let alone the last 3 decades (like the BSDs have)? Are you not so subtly referring to the systemd fiasco? That was about, if not over 10 years ago. I also don't think it matters. Change is not a bad thing, and that change is not as hectic or constant as you seem to imply. If you really want a Linux distro that hasn't changed at all in the past 30 years, Slackware might be your bets bet, but I don't think that 'having not changed in the past 30 years' really makes sense as a metric. Personally, I'm a fan of Alpine and Void Linux, and I also run NetBSD. FreeBSD seems too 'messy' as someone that likes minimalism, and OpenBSD's security focus is misplaced IMO.

pizzafeelsright 3y ago

Same same. Today I'm indifferent to Linux flavors. I am not sure why I would use FreeBSD although I recall the community being very helpful.

somat 3y ago

I use openbsd in a desktop role, which is a but unusual. I like it because it is comfortable in a way I don't find in linux or windows. I think this is because I understand it. A situation I never feel on windows. you are sitting on so much complexity, it is fine when you are in the happy path where things are working, But I start to get nervous when pondering not only how much I don't know about windows but on how much I can not know. Linux is much better, but still has too many moving parts. I don't think of openbsd as a minimal system, in fact it is almost the opposite openbsd crams more into it's base distribution than most linux distos. But the openbsd services tend to be small and well behaved and well documented., I am a bit biased but I tend to think of openbsd as the best bsd for desktop use. It is not the fastest, it does not have the best filesystems, but damn if everything does not come together in a really comfortable package.

mekster 3y ago

The fact BSD can't run Docker with its vast ecosystem is already a show stopper. Also having little glitches by tiny differences in shell handling make your already tuned Linux dotfiles incompatible that adds to the annoyances. And then I don't really get anything over Linux. pf is good but I'm just mostly using ufw and not running a router in the cloud that requires more than port handling. Ubuntu supports zfs in a very seamless way that I just don't find a reason to use BSD anymore unfortunately. It's probably only driven by companies that don't want to expose their code via GPL.

olgeni 3y ago
Yep, what other reason could there be.
gtewallace 3y ago
a couple projects underway for containers, still wip but promising. https://hackmd.io/7BIT_khIRQyPAe4EdiigHg https://hackmd.io/7BIT_khIRQyPAe4EdiigHg https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mekster 3y ago
  If BSD can run existing Docker ecosystem, then suddenly FreeBSD becomes a candidate for use. Though I don't find anything better than Linux, it's not lacking either.

vermaden 3y ago

A lot have happened for these 15-20 years: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36972903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36972903 ... and that can give You another reason 'why': - https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2020/09/07/quare-freebsd/ https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2020/09/07/quare-freebsd/ ... but if you are happy where You are - then stay where You are. I moved to FreeBSD because I was not happy on Linux. Regards, vermaden

panta 3y ago
Excellent article! Re-ignited my intention to use freebsd.
- vermaden 3y ago
  Thank You!