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> Conservative party under Sunak has turned deep into far-right corner of the politics. Go to a far-right corner of the web, and ask how they feel about mass s

> Conservative party under Sunak has turned deep into far-right corner of the politics. Go to a far-right corner of the web, and ask how they feel about mass surveillance and privacy rights. Edit: I did it for you. On https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1388551/ https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1388551/ , of the 17 posts in that thread, not one was in favor of surveillance. Not even with a "but it's okay for the blacks" disclaimer. In fact, here's a less-discussed thread specifically on immigrants privacy, and the literal white supremacists at stormfront are still against surveillance: Homeland Security Want to Collect Immigrants’ Social Media Information, But Privacy Groups Are Fighting Back - https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1225961/ https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1225961/ One of the replies: "It starts with "immigrants" and then it'll be everyone." Another anti-surveillance article, by another white-nationalist site: https://www.amren.com/blog/2023/01/big-brother-surveillance/ https://www.amren.com/blog/2023/01/big-brother-surveillance/ In fact, https://duckduckgo.com/?q=surveillance+site%3Aamren.com&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=surveillance+site%3Aamren.com&ia=w... does not return a single article supportive of mass surveillance, and several opposed to it.

downWidOutaFite 3y ago
It'll depend on if the surveillance is of things like immigrants or teens in poor neighborhoods vs armed militias or white supremacist domestic terrorists.
- eastbound 3y ago
  This sounds like prejudice about your political opponent. Doesn’t sound at all like the kind of things they would say. Do you have a reference, or is it just your projection of “my political opponent is stupid”? I’m adept of “Walk two moons in your enemy’s shoes” (Tibetan proverb); If you explained your opponent’s logic, would they agree with your articulation of their logic? In a staged debate, would you be skilled enough to defend your political opponent’s point of view? Until you are, is it worth holding your side of the argument? I’m saying that because I have seen people swap sides when they see the horrors that are generated by their own camp. Did you list the negative consequences of your own ideas, or do you endorse your opinion only at the exception of people who rape, kill each other, forget them in caves, fire live bullets in demonstrators, and mug journalists isolated in a dark room in Paris, as it happens today? Would you support your camp if gays were regularly killed on your town’s central square, as the consequence of the criminality you are inviting?
varispeed 3y ago
Nazis were in favour of surveillance and they even coined the term "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear". But pressure for surveillance, withdrawal from ECHR, scapegoating "illegal" immigrants is just one part. Another is fascist policy when it comes to economy - drive out small and medium business and give preferential treatment to big corporations while reducing workers' rights to zero. I am pretty sure you would also find staunch Nazis in the 30s who were also against surveillance. This is mostly because they actually have something to hide.
- SenAnder 3y ago
  The Nazis were preceded by, and did not coin that term: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/30683/is-if-you-have-nothing-to-hide-you-have-nothing-to-fear-a-line-used-by-joseph https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/30683/is-if-you... I don't know much about surveillance in Nazi Germany, but do know that East Germany and the Soviet Union were infamous for it. So if you define present-day political factions based on the actions of their near-century-old relatives (and ignore their present-day preferences), then surveillance is both far-right and far-left. Then look at how moderate parties simply go along with increasing surveillance, or how bipartisan PATRIOT act extensions are, and conclude that surveillance is also a centrist position. Attributing mass surveillance to any section of the 1-D political spectrum is misleading at best, deceptive at worst.
  - varispeed 3y ago
    Fair enough. However, this phrase always come up when discussing authoritarian regimes and their mass surveillance to maintain control over population. It sort of encapsulates the state of mind that someone might have living under such a regime, where if they don't any attract attention, then they may have a chance to live in peace. That said, I have ventured on some far-left forums being curious about how that side of the political spectrum view those policies and I was quite surprised that they generally approve of them and think that if ever a far left government comes to power, they will be able to use those powers to the benefit of their agenda. But there is no denial that current Conservative government is far right leaning.

downWidOutaFite 3y ago

It'll depend on if the surveillance is of things like immigrants or teens in poor neighborhoods vs armed militias or white supremacist domestic terrorists.

eastbound 3y ago
This sounds like prejudice about your political opponent. Doesn’t sound at all like the kind of things they would say. Do you have a reference, or is it just your projection of “my political opponent is stupid”? I’m adept of “Walk two moons in your enemy’s shoes” (Tibetan proverb); If you explained your opponent’s logic, would they agree with your articulation of their logic? In a staged debate, would you be skilled enough to defend your political opponent’s point of view? Until you are, is it worth holding your side of the argument? I’m saying that because I have seen people swap sides when they see the horrors that are generated by their own camp. Did you list the negative consequences of your own ideas, or do you endorse your opinion only at the exception of people who rape, kill each other, forget them in caves, fire live bullets in demonstrators, and mug journalists isolated in a dark room in Paris, as it happens today? Would you support your camp if gays were regularly killed on your town’s central square, as the consequence of the criminality you are inviting?

varispeed 3y ago

Nazis were in favour of surveillance and they even coined the term "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear". But pressure for surveillance, withdrawal from ECHR, scapegoating "illegal" immigrants is just one part. Another is fascist policy when it comes to economy - drive out small and medium business and give preferential treatment to big corporations while reducing workers' rights to zero. I am pretty sure you would also find staunch Nazis in the 30s who were also against surveillance. This is mostly because they actually have something to hide.

SenAnder 3y ago
The Nazis were preceded by, and did not coin that term: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/30683/is-if-you-have-nothing-to-hide-you-have-nothing-to-fear-a-line-used-by-joseph https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/30683/is-if-you... I don't know much about surveillance in Nazi Germany, but do know that East Germany and the Soviet Union were infamous for it. So if you define present-day political factions based on the actions of their near-century-old relatives (and ignore their present-day preferences), then surveillance is both far-right and far-left. Then look at how moderate parties simply go along with increasing surveillance, or how bipartisan PATRIOT act extensions are, and conclude that surveillance is also a centrist position. Attributing mass surveillance to any section of the 1-D political spectrum is misleading at best, deceptive at worst.
- varispeed 3y ago
  Fair enough. However, this phrase always come up when discussing authoritarian regimes and their mass surveillance to maintain control over population. It sort of encapsulates the state of mind that someone might have living under such a regime, where if they don't any attract attention, then they may have a chance to live in peace. That said, I have ventured on some far-left forums being curious about how that side of the political spectrum view those policies and I was quite surprised that they generally approve of them and think that if ever a far left government comes to power, they will be able to use those powers to the benefit of their agenda. But there is no denial that current Conservative government is far right leaning.