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Uh... hmmm. I work in the industry and this article is very even handed but still a bit off. We don't really have have a term for "behavioral" advertising. So

Uh... hmmm. I work in the industry and this article is very even handed but still a bit off. We don't really have have a term for "behavioral" advertising. So a lot of things are being lumped together that don't necessarily fit. For example, Facebook USED to be highly valued because of the amount of "targeting" (again, we don't use the term "behavioral") data they had. When you went to tell FB what you liked and didn't like they used that. They also kept that valuable data under lock and key - they have no interest in sharing it. Things are a bit different now. Since they and everyone else switched to an endless "doomscrolling" experience, all that data is worthless. No one keeps their likes up to date, no one engages with content. So there's really not that much targeting ("behavioral") data out of FB anymore. So native ads are less effective, but people look at much more. "Data brokerages" are pretty niche. They don't exist to the extent that people think they do. And the data they provide is often absolute garbage. Users switch phones, emails, numbers way too often to actually get anything resembling a permanent "lock". Marketing data ages FAST. Do you go to a store and find they have an address that is like 4 moves old? That's kind of the quality of brokerage data - it's good for filling in gaps, but is not nearly as valuable as first-party data. So part of what you are seeing is not necessarily advertisers responding to upcoming EU regulations, but organic changes in what sort of advertising is even effective anymore. Third party cookies are not as useful as they used to be, and they cut into the big advertisers' monopolies on user data. So they are being phased out anyway. > Attribution / measurement of advertising campaigns became more and more precise This is the exact opposite of what is happening in the industry. There are so many different data sources that all conflict that data quality is often very dire in most large organizations. So there is a ton of fraud and snake oil used to justify advertising budgets. However, where the author hits the nail on the head I think are future outcomes: EU markets are being deprioritized (it doesn't hurt that economically, consumer wealth in Europe is falling like a rock). Users are opting in to more advertisements (Instagram is quickly becoming the QVC of the internet). One thing he misses is the rising importance of sponsorships and physical marketing..

JohnFen 3y ago
If what you say here is accurate, that's all very good news. But how does that square with the fact that the online ad industry continues to be at war with people who don't want to be tracked?
- jaclaz 3y ago
  The two things do not seem to me as contrasting, there is an industry gathering the data and selling them (with promises and snake-oil) and other people buying those data. Whether what is sold is accurate or not is another thing, as long as it is perceived as "good enough" by the buyers it will be bought anyway. I don't think that many companies (buyers) have the guts to stop for - say - 6 months all advertising on a given channel and see what happens.
  - legitster 3y ago
    Again, take the data buying and selling and set it aside. That's kind of like a whole separate thing. Even without data brokers, there is tons of fraud and snake-oil. When you are comparing advertising success, website traffic, email delivery, product usage, etc - actually getting consistent user data between them is a nightmare. Everyone has incentive to pump up their own numbers. And oftentimes the reporting you are engaging in is so complicated that a lot of companies rely on consultants to do all of the work. > I don't think that many companies (buyers) have the guts to stop for - say - 6 months all advertising on a given channel and see what happens. Our company had a broken ad run on LinkedIn for 6 months. It cost us over $100k. The manager's response was "Can we turn them on again until we fix them? I need to spend the budget or I will lose it."
    - jaclaz 3y ago
      Yes, we are saying exactly the same things, though in a slightly different way. The results of this (or that) advertising are either non-measurable or poorly measured, and the way advertising budgets are calculated (and spent) is - to say the least - perverse.
- legitster 3y ago
  > If what you say here is accurate, that's all very good news. Ummm. Except for the part where basically a few players will have a monopoly on online advertising. It's really a slow return to how TV advertising and etc worked. > continues to be at war with people who don't want to be tracked How so? There are infinitely more privacy rules and safeguards than there were a decade ago. Let alone the amount of tools like AdBlocker or Ghostery or Brave or etc. Keep in mind that the awareness of your online presence is probably growing faster than your actual online presence. In fact, just like standard of living, it's easy to lose perspective of just how fast our entire idea of privacy has changed. 100 years ago, hotel beds used to be shared amongst strangers. Within our lifetimes, books with every person in town's name, number, and address used to be delivered to everyone's home.
cm2012 3y ago
As someone who works in advertising, this comment is wrong in many many ways.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  I agree, but it would be better to spell out the many many ways than to leave it dangling.
- veave 3y ago
  [flagged]
- legitster 3y ago
  I don't work in advertising - I just use it as a customer. To the extent that it is wrong it is because we, as an average customer, have a pretty bad customer experience using the products. Educate me.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    > I work in the industry > I don't work in advertising ??
    - ilkke 3y ago
      Not the same person
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        No, it is the same person. Both are quotes from 'legitster': > I don't work in advertising from > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37266627 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37266627 and > I work in the industry from > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37264230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37264230 >
johndhi 3y ago
Great post. Adding that the article misreads the legal events too. The Norwegian decision for FB isn't a watershed moment. The Irish enforcement against them is not.
BartjeD 3y ago
Could you give me a source for: `(it doesn't hurt that economically, consumer wealth in Europe is falling like a rock).` Where in Europe is consumer wealth falling, by how much, and why is this a trend? I could say the same about the US or Brazil or any other place, barring a source.
- mantas 3y ago
  Median consumer is getting fucked by central bank loan rates, sky-high housing prices wherever jobs are and overall inflation. Talking from EU perspective, but probably applies to most of the world pretty well.
yabatopia 3y ago
> it doesn't hurt that economically, consumer wealth in Europe is falling like a rock Falling like a rock? Where is this comming from? What Europe are you talking about? The EU, the continent, the eurozone, the UK, Russia? Granted, high inflation, primarily caused by higher energy prices after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, has slowed down consumer spending in the EU, but generally speaking the outlook isn't that bad. - Total financial assets of EU households grew almost continuously during the period 2011–2021, falling only in 2018. Their total value increased from €21 331 billion in 2011 to €34 982 billion in 2021, a 64.0 % overall increase. (Source: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Households_-_statistics_on_financial_assets_and_liabilities#Assets_and_liabilities https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...) - Consumer Spending in European Union is expected to be 1804.00 EUR Billion by the end of this quarter, according to Trading Economics global macro models and analysts expectations. In the long-term, the European Union Consumer Spending is projected to trend around 1836.00 EUR Billion in 2024 and 1869.00 EUR Billion in 2025, according to our econometric models. (Source: https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/consumer-spending https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/consumer-spendin...) - In June, Eurosystem staff revised down slightly the outlook for growth in the euro area for the next two years. The economy is expected to slow to 0.9% in 2023 before rebounding to 1.5% in 2024 and 1.6% in 2025 as energy prices moderate, foreign demand strengthens and real incomes improve. (Source: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2023/html/ecb.sp230707~8f8f9debc6.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2023/html/ecb.sp230...)
- abwizz 3y ago
  i think parent was refering to growing wealth inequality. the average might be fine.
- tick_tock_tick 3y ago
  Damn I knew the EU wasn't in a great place from the last few years but I didn't realize it's post covid recovery was so horrible compared to the USA. Hopefully they can turn it around!
  - BiteCode_dev 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

If what you say here is accurate, that's all very good news. But how does that square with the fact that the online ad industry continues to be at war with people who don't want to be tracked?

jaclaz 3y ago
The two things do not seem to me as contrasting, there is an industry gathering the data and selling them (with promises and snake-oil) and other people buying those data. Whether what is sold is accurate or not is another thing, as long as it is perceived as "good enough" by the buyers it will be bought anyway. I don't think that many companies (buyers) have the guts to stop for - say - 6 months all advertising on a given channel and see what happens.
- legitster 3y ago
  Again, take the data buying and selling and set it aside. That's kind of like a whole separate thing. Even without data brokers, there is tons of fraud and snake-oil. When you are comparing advertising success, website traffic, email delivery, product usage, etc - actually getting consistent user data between them is a nightmare. Everyone has incentive to pump up their own numbers. And oftentimes the reporting you are engaging in is so complicated that a lot of companies rely on consultants to do all of the work. > I don't think that many companies (buyers) have the guts to stop for - say - 6 months all advertising on a given channel and see what happens. Our company had a broken ad run on LinkedIn for 6 months. It cost us over $100k. The manager's response was "Can we turn them on again until we fix them? I need to spend the budget or I will lose it."
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    Yes, we are saying exactly the same things, though in a slightly different way. The results of this (or that) advertising are either non-measurable or poorly measured, and the way advertising budgets are calculated (and spent) is - to say the least - perverse.
legitster 3y ago
> If what you say here is accurate, that's all very good news. Ummm. Except for the part where basically a few players will have a monopoly on online advertising. It's really a slow return to how TV advertising and etc worked. > continues to be at war with people who don't want to be tracked How so? There are infinitely more privacy rules and safeguards than there were a decade ago. Let alone the amount of tools like AdBlocker or Ghostery or Brave or etc. Keep in mind that the awareness of your online presence is probably growing faster than your actual online presence. In fact, just like standard of living, it's easy to lose perspective of just how fast our entire idea of privacy has changed. 100 years ago, hotel beds used to be shared amongst strangers. Within our lifetimes, books with every person in town's name, number, and address used to be delivered to everyone's home.

cm2012 3y ago

As someone who works in advertising, this comment is wrong in many many ways.

jacquesm 3y ago
I agree, but it would be better to spell out the many many ways than to leave it dangling.
veave 3y ago
[flagged]
legitster 3y ago
I don't work in advertising - I just use it as a customer. To the extent that it is wrong it is because we, as an average customer, have a pretty bad customer experience using the products. Educate me.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > I work in the industry > I don't work in advertising ??
  - ilkke 3y ago
    Not the same person
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      No, it is the same person. Both are quotes from 'legitster': > I don't work in advertising from > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37266627 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37266627 and > I work in the industry from > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37264230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37264230 >

johndhi 3y ago

Great post. Adding that the article misreads the legal events too. The Norwegian decision for FB isn't a watershed moment. The Irish enforcement against them is not.

BartjeD 3y ago

Could you give me a source for: `(it doesn't hurt that economically, consumer wealth in Europe is falling like a rock).` Where in Europe is consumer wealth falling, by how much, and why is this a trend? I could say the same about the US or Brazil or any other place, barring a source.

mantas 3y ago
Median consumer is getting fucked by central bank loan rates, sky-high housing prices wherever jobs are and overall inflation. Talking from EU perspective, but probably applies to most of the world pretty well.

yabatopia 3y ago

> it doesn't hurt that economically, consumer wealth in Europe is falling like a rock Falling like a rock? Where is this comming from? What Europe are you talking about? The EU, the continent, the eurozone, the UK, Russia? Granted, high inflation, primarily caused by higher energy prices after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, has slowed down consumer spending in the EU, but generally speaking the outlook isn't that bad. - Total financial assets of EU households grew almost continuously during the period 2011–2021, falling only in 2018. Their total value increased from €21 331 billion in 2011 to €34 982 billion in 2021, a 64.0 % overall increase. (Source: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Households_-_statistics_on_financial_assets_and_liabilities#Assets_and_liabilities https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...) - Consumer Spending in European Union is expected to be 1804.00 EUR Billion by the end of this quarter, according to Trading Economics global macro models and analysts expectations. In the long-term, the European Union Consumer Spending is projected to trend around 1836.00 EUR Billion in 2024 and 1869.00 EUR Billion in 2025, according to our econometric models. (Source: https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/consumer-spending https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/consumer-spendin...) - In June, Eurosystem staff revised down slightly the outlook for growth in the euro area for the next two years. The economy is expected to slow to 0.9% in 2023 before rebounding to 1.5% in 2024 and 1.6% in 2025 as energy prices moderate, foreign demand strengthens and real incomes improve. (Source: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2023/html/ecb.sp230707~8f8f9debc6.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2023/html/ecb.sp230...)

abwizz 3y ago
i think parent was refering to growing wealth inequality. the average might be fine.
tick_tock_tick 3y ago
Damn I knew the EU wasn't in a great place from the last few years but I didn't realize it's post covid recovery was so horrible compared to the USA. Hopefully they can turn it around!
- BiteCode_dev 3y ago