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The maker of Nikwax also offers membrane-free waterproof clothing under the name Paramo. Environmentally friendly and very effective - used by a lot of UK mount

The maker of Nikwax also offers membrane-free waterproof clothing under the name Paramo. Environmentally friendly and very effective - used by a lot of UK mountain rescue teams. It's basically carefully chosen and designed fabrics with Nikwax already applied.

nextos 3y ago
Came here to say the same thing. Paramo is great, robust, and sustainable. Another nice option, especially for streetwear, is Ventile cotton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile Ventile clothes without nasty water repellents applied on top are generally marketed as EtaProof.
- dogman144 3y ago
  Cotton kills, don’t wear that outdoors in anything serious.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    In what way, and by what mechanism, does cotton kill?
    - chrisan 3y ago
      Hypothermia https://www.trailhiking.com.au/gear/cotton-kills/ https://www.trailhiking.com.au/gear/cotton-kills/
      - nextos 3y ago
        Sure, but Ventile was designed for exactly the opposite, to prevent hypothermia on WWII pilots while they were awaiting rescue in the North Sea. It was also worn in the summit of Mt Everest by Edmund Hillary as it is a great windstopper. It has nothing to do with regular cotton.
        dogman144 3y ago
        Ventile requires re-proofing though, no? It’s not like a magical variant of cotton, it’s just cotton with treatment. With the margin of error in the outdoord being as small as it is, I’d trust synthetics or wool that will always work vs the risk my cotton isn’t treated recently and reaches failure.
        fjellmann 3y ago
        On the contrary, Ventile should never be proofed. PFAS and such were used earlier as a lubricant in the textile mills, but is now replaced with something more eco-friendly. The water-repellant properties of this was something akin to a happy accident. Original WW2-era Ventile did not use this, as you might guess. Ventile works it's magic by the combination of long fibered cotton, thigtly spun thread and a close weave. The result is a fabric that after some time swells in rain by absorbing water, and then becoming saturated and impermeable(ish) to further ingress of the wet stuff. The inside will feel damp, but not wet. Wool as a base layer is of course an excellent counter to this. And, all the while excess body heat is shed quite effectively. When at rest, put on a wool or fleece 2nd layer, just like with a synthetic shell. A compromise, yes. But the greatest advantage over 3L membrane etc. in my opinion is the ruggedness and durability, "experienced wetness" beeing alike. And in the high mountains, boreal or a mid-winter climate with months of stable sub-freezing tempratures, this is a supreme choice for your outer shell. Sweat converted to frost forms on the outside of the garment, instead of the inside as it is want to do in a 2L or 3L. Brush it right of, and carry on.
      - jerlam 3y ago
        Most of the fear of cotton is from its use as a base layer, not as an outer layer. Militaries around the world still use cotton heavily, but layered over wool (in WW2) or polypropylene (modern) for colder weather.
        dogman144 3y ago
        Ya and also those militaries have cold weather gear, scheduled conditions to switch into them, and aggressive measures for moisture control (to include no movements in goretex). Joe the hiker in cotton rarely does.
    - 6510 3y ago
      It absorbs a lot of moisture, it kills by hypothermia.
    - FrankoDelMar 3y ago
      Cotton does not wick away moisture as effectively as technical fabrics or wool, leaving the wearer wet during physical activity thus increasing the risk of hypothermia when exposed to the elements.
    - jsmith99 3y ago
      I assume they mean that it takes a long time to dry and holds water too well, and doesn't provide warmth when wet, so cotton is often avoided for hiking.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - carabiner 3y ago
    Jeans used to be standard hiking attire in the Sierra Nevada in the '80s. Most of them survived the experience. It's fine in the summer if you find them comfortable. They chafe and if you dip in a stream get wet and heavy, but for casual hiking it's fine. I wear nylon running shorts and cotton socks. For winter, I have a closet of 3L, 2L, soft shells but in all honesty 99% of hikers will not find themselves in those conditions.
    - dogman144 3y ago
      Ive been in plenty situations where summer + sweat-wet + evening or colds gets cold real quick. Add in situations like too tired to quickly get off the 40F peak + windchill, it can get dicey real quick. Same with a wet cotton shirt sailing. On and on. In the 80’s wool hiking gear used to be around for this reason too. I’d never feel appropriate recommending cotton for anything serious, any season.
  - _yb2s 3y ago
    Cotton kills in cold weather, but in hot weather it is a lifesaver... it breathes much better than synthetics so your natural evaporative cooling still works, and it keeps your skin drier so you don't get jungle rot or fungal infections.
    - dogman144 3y ago
      This is just bad advice. Hot weather days have cool evenings, nights and mornings, and it’s not like you magically stop sweating and dry off at 6pm when the sun is setting. There are plenty synthetics or wool that dry out fine and insulate fine. Those same situations in cotton I’ve seen turn very dangerous.
      - _yb2s 3y ago
        You gotta use common sense in the right environment, and definitely don't get stuck in the cold in a wet cotton shirt, but a good cotton shirt can save you from heatstroke in situations where synthetics or wool would not, even thin stuff designed for hot weather. I honestly think the "cotton kills" stuff is overblown, it's a lot more complex than that. I would also say "plastic kills" because synthetic clothes make the sweat drip off under the clothes without evaporating- so you lose much of your "cooling capacity", and are also susceptible to jungle rot, fungal infections, etc. If you look at people that do hard labor or outdoor guide work in extreme hot climates around the world- they all use cotton or similar plant fibers. All of the concerns about cotton come from it cooling "too well" and that often simply isn't an issue. Synthetic and wool stuff is also just not very durable, and incredibly expensive. I say this as someone with decades of outdoor experience, an ex-boy scout, etc. who used to be a hardline proponent of "cotton kills" in all outdoor conditions. I learned the hard way that I was wrong after being proven wrong time and again in real world conditions, by people with more experience than me that were able to keep functioning in extreme heat better than I was.
        carabiner 3y ago
        100% agree. Cotton is great in hot temps. Yes you can die if you wear it in a snow storm but seriously, how many novices are hiking in these conditions today? I think it might be a holdover from decades ago when forecasts were less reliable and people really did get caught in "random" storms up in the mountains, and were generally less familiar with planning. I can't even remember the last time I saw someone on a real trail hiking in jeans though where hypothermia would be a risk... Most casual guys, if it was really cold, would probably just be like "f this let's stay at home" since hiking for 90% of people is a summer activity.
- 1053r 3y ago
  +1 Ventile is an exception to the "rule" that "cotton kills" (in the cold). Especially great is for staying dry is double layered ventile, which is now free of flourine chemistry for extra waterproofing (older iterations used PFAS as an extra waterproofing coating.) The cotton breathes, it's more durable than gore-tex or off-brand knockoffs (stressed PTFE), and it doesn't make annoying "swish swish" noises either, which is helpful for bird watchers and other folks that want to move quietly in nature. There are two major disadvantages: cost and weight. A ventile garment is many times the price of a similar ptfe garment, especially now that the original gore-tex patents have expired. And it's also many times the weight. However, let's be honest, if you can afford ventile, you probably can drop 3 pounds of fat through the additional time you will spend outside, lengthen your healthspan and lifetime, and use the garment long enough to pay for the several "waterproof" ptfe garments you would have gone through in the same time.
_yb2s 3y ago
Awesome, thanks for sharing this- I had no idea! This is great because I feel Nikwax is hard to apply. I once trued unsuccessfully using their "wash in" stuff- I think I somehow applied the coating incorrectly... but the spray on product I have works great.
carabiner 3y ago
What are some Paramo jackets available in the US? This brand is unheard of here but I've seen it mentioned in Scottish winter climbing.

nextos 3y ago

Came here to say the same thing. Paramo is great, robust, and sustainable. Another nice option, especially for streetwear, is Ventile cotton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile Ventile clothes without nasty water repellents applied on top are generally marketed as EtaProof.

dogman144 3y ago
Cotton kills, don’t wear that outdoors in anything serious.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  In what way, and by what mechanism, does cotton kill?
  - chrisan 3y ago
    Hypothermia https://www.trailhiking.com.au/gear/cotton-kills/ https://www.trailhiking.com.au/gear/cotton-kills/
    - nextos 3y ago
      Sure, but Ventile was designed for exactly the opposite, to prevent hypothermia on WWII pilots while they were awaiting rescue in the North Sea. It was also worn in the summit of Mt Everest by Edmund Hillary as it is a great windstopper. It has nothing to do with regular cotton.
      - dogman144 3y ago
        Ventile requires re-proofing though, no? It’s not like a magical variant of cotton, it’s just cotton with treatment. With the margin of error in the outdoord being as small as it is, I’d trust synthetics or wool that will always work vs the risk my cotton isn’t treated recently and reaches failure.
        fjellmann 3y ago
        On the contrary, Ventile should never be proofed. PFAS and such were used earlier as a lubricant in the textile mills, but is now replaced with something more eco-friendly. The water-repellant properties of this was something akin to a happy accident. Original WW2-era Ventile did not use this, as you might guess. Ventile works it's magic by the combination of long fibered cotton, thigtly spun thread and a close weave. The result is a fabric that after some time swells in rain by absorbing water, and then becoming saturated and impermeable(ish) to further ingress of the wet stuff. The inside will feel damp, but not wet. Wool as a base layer is of course an excellent counter to this. And, all the while excess body heat is shed quite effectively. When at rest, put on a wool or fleece 2nd layer, just like with a synthetic shell. A compromise, yes. But the greatest advantage over 3L membrane etc. in my opinion is the ruggedness and durability, "experienced wetness" beeing alike. And in the high mountains, boreal or a mid-winter climate with months of stable sub-freezing tempratures, this is a supreme choice for your outer shell. Sweat converted to frost forms on the outside of the garment, instead of the inside as it is want to do in a 2L or 3L. Brush it right of, and carry on.
    - jerlam 3y ago
      Most of the fear of cotton is from its use as a base layer, not as an outer layer. Militaries around the world still use cotton heavily, but layered over wool (in WW2) or polypropylene (modern) for colder weather.
      - dogman144 3y ago
        Ya and also those militaries have cold weather gear, scheduled conditions to switch into them, and aggressive measures for moisture control (to include no movements in goretex). Joe the hiker in cotton rarely does.
  - 6510 3y ago
    It absorbs a lot of moisture, it kills by hypothermia.
  - FrankoDelMar 3y ago
    Cotton does not wick away moisture as effectively as technical fabrics or wool, leaving the wearer wet during physical activity thus increasing the risk of hypothermia when exposed to the elements.
  - jsmith99 3y ago
    I assume they mean that it takes a long time to dry and holds water too well, and doesn't provide warmth when wet, so cotton is often avoided for hiking.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- carabiner 3y ago
  Jeans used to be standard hiking attire in the Sierra Nevada in the '80s. Most of them survived the experience. It's fine in the summer if you find them comfortable. They chafe and if you dip in a stream get wet and heavy, but for casual hiking it's fine. I wear nylon running shorts and cotton socks. For winter, I have a closet of 3L, 2L, soft shells but in all honesty 99% of hikers will not find themselves in those conditions.
  - dogman144 3y ago
    Ive been in plenty situations where summer + sweat-wet + evening or colds gets cold real quick. Add in situations like too tired to quickly get off the 40F peak + windchill, it can get dicey real quick. Same with a wet cotton shirt sailing. On and on. In the 80’s wool hiking gear used to be around for this reason too. I’d never feel appropriate recommending cotton for anything serious, any season.
- _yb2s 3y ago
  Cotton kills in cold weather, but in hot weather it is a lifesaver... it breathes much better than synthetics so your natural evaporative cooling still works, and it keeps your skin drier so you don't get jungle rot or fungal infections.
  - dogman144 3y ago
    This is just bad advice. Hot weather days have cool evenings, nights and mornings, and it’s not like you magically stop sweating and dry off at 6pm when the sun is setting. There are plenty synthetics or wool that dry out fine and insulate fine. Those same situations in cotton I’ve seen turn very dangerous.
    - _yb2s 3y ago
      You gotta use common sense in the right environment, and definitely don't get stuck in the cold in a wet cotton shirt, but a good cotton shirt can save you from heatstroke in situations where synthetics or wool would not, even thin stuff designed for hot weather. I honestly think the "cotton kills" stuff is overblown, it's a lot more complex than that. I would also say "plastic kills" because synthetic clothes make the sweat drip off under the clothes without evaporating- so you lose much of your "cooling capacity", and are also susceptible to jungle rot, fungal infections, etc. If you look at people that do hard labor or outdoor guide work in extreme hot climates around the world- they all use cotton or similar plant fibers. All of the concerns about cotton come from it cooling "too well" and that often simply isn't an issue. Synthetic and wool stuff is also just not very durable, and incredibly expensive. I say this as someone with decades of outdoor experience, an ex-boy scout, etc. who used to be a hardline proponent of "cotton kills" in all outdoor conditions. I learned the hard way that I was wrong after being proven wrong time and again in real world conditions, by people with more experience than me that were able to keep functioning in extreme heat better than I was.
      - carabiner 3y ago
        100% agree. Cotton is great in hot temps. Yes you can die if you wear it in a snow storm but seriously, how many novices are hiking in these conditions today? I think it might be a holdover from decades ago when forecasts were less reliable and people really did get caught in "random" storms up in the mountains, and were generally less familiar with planning. I can't even remember the last time I saw someone on a real trail hiking in jeans though where hypothermia would be a risk... Most casual guys, if it was really cold, would probably just be like "f this let's stay at home" since hiking for 90% of people is a summer activity.
1053r 3y ago
+1 Ventile is an exception to the "rule" that "cotton kills" (in the cold). Especially great is for staying dry is double layered ventile, which is now free of flourine chemistry for extra waterproofing (older iterations used PFAS as an extra waterproofing coating.) The cotton breathes, it's more durable than gore-tex or off-brand knockoffs (stressed PTFE), and it doesn't make annoying "swish swish" noises either, which is helpful for bird watchers and other folks that want to move quietly in nature. There are two major disadvantages: cost and weight. A ventile garment is many times the price of a similar ptfe garment, especially now that the original gore-tex patents have expired. And it's also many times the weight. However, let's be honest, if you can afford ventile, you probably can drop 3 pounds of fat through the additional time you will spend outside, lengthen your healthspan and lifetime, and use the garment long enough to pay for the several "waterproof" ptfe garments you would have gone through in the same time.

_yb2s 3y ago

Awesome, thanks for sharing this- I had no idea! This is great because I feel Nikwax is hard to apply. I once trued unsuccessfully using their "wash in" stuff- I think I somehow applied the coating incorrectly... but the spray on product I have works great.

carabiner 3y ago

What are some Paramo jackets available in the US? This brand is unheard of here but I've seen it mentioned in Scottish winter climbing.