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Disappointing that the TL;DR doesn't address the title question. As a backpacker and a sailor, I strongly feel that DWR/Gore-Tex stuff is garbage anyways- it's

by _yb2s 3y ago

Disappointing that the TL;DR doesn't address the title question. As a backpacker and a sailor, I strongly feel that DWR/Gore-Tex stuff is garbage anyways- it's (only slightly) breathable when new, but when the coating wears after a few weeks or months, or gets dirty it becomes no longer hydrophobic, and the water sheets on completely blocking the pores. This leads to zero breathability like a sheet of plastic, yet they usually also manage to leak water in constant all day heavy rains or ocean spray. The gore-tex membrane inside is very fragile and becomes ripped and unglued pretty rapidly, in places you cannot see- you don't know until you are counting on it, and it fails. Two vastly superior alternatives that are PFAS free, much cheaper, more durable, more waterproof, and already on the shelf at most major outdoor stores: * Polyurethane coated polyester raincoats, e.g. by Helley-Hansen cost about $100 USD new, and are more durable and waterproof than DWR/Nylon/Gore-Tex. Zero breathability (just like Gore-Tex in practice!) but because designers know this, they have excellent vents added, with waterproof zippers to close in extreme weather. Although they look similar, these are much better than your standard cheap PVC raincoat. I use these for sailing and stay bone dry with waves crashing over my body all day long. * Membrane only jackets (membrane on the outside) such as Columbia OutDry. Because the surface material is fundamentally hydrophobic, they need no PFAS DWR coating, and stay waterproof and breathable even when dirty or aged. Only about $150 new. // Edit: a third great option is PFAS free Nikwax brand waterproofing you can apply yourself to almost any garment. I've personally only used this on tents and car convertible tops, but it worked great.

PreInternet01 3y ago
Well, I'm really old and also (for probably unrelated reasons) really dumb, but for me Gore-Tex has been an absolute revelation. Whereas previously, rain gear was heavy and had a very limited lifetime, anything with the magic GORE-TEX (sorry for the all-caps, but that is the trademark...) label actually worked and lasted pretty much forever (like PFAS, I get it now, but still...). I'm sure that PE-coated and membrane-only gear are also really great, and I'll definitely check them out the next time I need a new softshell, but for the next decade or so, I'm also sure my current jacket will be just fine. But, Nikwax? Nope... good for the outside layer of shoes (with the inside layer taking care of heat/moisture), but that's really about it. Tents, maybe, car-tops, no idea, but for garments that's just a no-go, since it will all but eliminate outgoing heat transfer.
Ensorceled 3y ago
I had a fantastic Gore-Tex jacket (Browning) that was simply magical for hiking in the rain or wet snow. For two seasons. Now I have a Arc'Teryx with real water proofing and huge side vents. Still working 100% after 6 years. I just checked and Arc'Teryx looks to have gone full Gore-Tex now, my jacket isn't on the product list :-(
jsmith99 3y ago
The maker of Nikwax also offers membrane-free waterproof clothing under the name Paramo. Environmentally friendly and very effective - used by a lot of UK mountain rescue teams. It's basically carefully chosen and designed fabrics with Nikwax already applied.
- nextos 3y ago
  Came here to say the same thing. Paramo is great, robust, and sustainable. Another nice option, especially for streetwear, is Ventile cotton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile Ventile clothes without nasty water repellents applied on top are generally marketed as EtaProof.
  - dogman144 3y ago
    Cotton kills, don’t wear that outdoors in anything serious.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      In what way, and by what mechanism, does cotton kill?
      - chrisan 3y ago
        Hypothermia https://www.trailhiking.com.au/gear/cotton-kills/ https://www.trailhiking.com.au/gear/cotton-kills/
        nextos 3y ago
        Sure, but Ventile was designed for exactly the opposite, to prevent hypothermia on WWII pilots while they were awaiting rescue in the North Sea. It was also worn in the summit of Mt Everest by Edmund Hillary as it is a great windstopper. It has nothing to do with regular cotton.
jancsika 3y ago
> Zero breathability (just like Gore-Tex in practice!) but because designers know this, they have excellent vents added, with waterproof zippers to close in extreme weather. That's not a distinction. Most Gore-tex or similar proprietary brands also have vents and waterproof zippers. In fact, for the vast majority of readers here on HN, pit zips and a storm flap on a seam-sealed jacket will keep them dry and keep the garment from wetting out in the vast majority of conditions. Heck, they could probably even get away with one of those super-lightweight packable windbreakers with a DWR from Mountain Hardware, Patagonia, etc. You could be out for maybe 25-30 minutes of driving rain before water finally gets in through the seams. That's more than enough time for most indoor cats here. :)
i_am_jl 3y ago
>As a backpacker and a sailor, I strongly feel that DWR/Gore-Tex stuff is garbage anyways- it's (only slightly) breathable when new, but when the coating wears after a few weeks or months, or gets dirty it becomes no longer hydrophobic, and the water sheets on completely blocking the pores. Most jackets that use a durable water repellant require the coating be regularly maintained (cleaning, re-heating) and re-applied after some time. Manufacturers usually say "years", but one year seems more realistic, even in a not-that-wet climate. That being said, I agree that Gore-Tex stuff is not waterproof enough for sailing. It's a compromise between waterproof/light-weight/packability/breathability.
11235813213455 3y ago
as a former sailor, lycra & noeprene were the way to go
- runnerup 3y ago
  Really depends on the area. If you’re sailing late in the season on Lake Superior or the North Sea, you might need a bit more than that when it’s below freezing and raining.
fouc 3y ago
For backpacking I would highly recommend a hiking umbrella (attached to backpack) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv-2-vAzTRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv-2-vAzTRw
tppiotrowski 3y ago
I have an ongoing joke with my wife that GoreTex is a myth. We both spend a lot of time on trail and once I splurged for GoreTex trail runners. The first time I wore them on snow I was amazed. My socks stayed dry. Three outings later they were no different than non-GoreTex trail runners. Anecdotal evidence but there seems to be a huge spectrum of GoreTex effectiveness across garments. I'm not sure how these items are manufactured. Is it possible some items have "more" Goretex or have it applied in a specific way to make them last longer than others?
- cjblomqvist 3y ago
  AFAIK Gore Tex are pretty rigid about how it's used with significant QC done within the factory using it to ensure a consistent experience. Then of course, I'm unsure how good that QC really is. (I work in the industry, but not directly with these sort of things).
  - tppiotrowski 3y ago
    How is GoreTex applied? Is it a chemical that you spray on fabric or a fabric itself?
- mordechai9000 3y ago
  I think this is due to the membrane getting worn or punctured. Hiking boots now almost all have a goretex membrane, and they seem to last maybe one or two seasons of regular use before they leak. The leather can last many years with care, and the sole can be replaced, but once the goretex is shot you only have whatever water proofing you can apply to the leather itself.
usrusr 3y ago
“and the water sheets on completely blocking the pores“ Yeah, that's apparently the key problem: the shakedry product line (exposed membrane) was incredibly good at breathability, but I guess the usage restrictions (no backpacks that would rub off the membrane) should be taken seriously, considering the footprint.
meristohm 3y ago
How effective is oilskin? I see from a web searh that some people still use this, and it is potentially biodegradable with the right fabric and coating.
darkclouds 3y ago
Some of the sweat molecules are larger than the holes in some membranes! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7277079/#:~:text=These%20components%20are%20composed%20primarily,)%2C%20and%20unmetabolized%20pharmaceutical%20drugs https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7277079/#:~:tex....

by _yb2s 3y ago

PreInternet01 3y ago

Well, I'm really old and also (for probably unrelated reasons) really dumb, but for me Gore-Tex has been an absolute revelation. Whereas previously, rain gear was heavy and had a very limited lifetime, anything with the magic GORE-TEX (sorry for the all-caps, but that is the trademark...) label actually worked and lasted pretty much forever (like PFAS, I get it now, but still...). I'm sure that PE-coated and membrane-only gear are also really great, and I'll definitely check them out the next time I need a new softshell, but for the next decade or so, I'm also sure my current jacket will be just fine. But, Nikwax? Nope... good for the outside layer of shoes (with the inside layer taking care of heat/moisture), but that's really about it. Tents, maybe, car-tops, no idea, but for garments that's just a no-go, since it will all but eliminate outgoing heat transfer.

Ensorceled 3y ago

I had a fantastic Gore-Tex jacket (Browning) that was simply magical for hiking in the rain or wet snow. For two seasons. Now I have a Arc'Teryx with real water proofing and huge side vents. Still working 100% after 6 years. I just checked and Arc'Teryx looks to have gone full Gore-Tex now, my jacket isn't on the product list :-(

jsmith99 3y ago

The maker of Nikwax also offers membrane-free waterproof clothing under the name Paramo. Environmentally friendly and very effective - used by a lot of UK mountain rescue teams. It's basically carefully chosen and designed fabrics with Nikwax already applied.

nextos 3y ago
Came here to say the same thing. Paramo is great, robust, and sustainable. Another nice option, especially for streetwear, is Ventile cotton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile Ventile clothes without nasty water repellents applied on top are generally marketed as EtaProof.
- dogman144 3y ago
  Cotton kills, don’t wear that outdoors in anything serious.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    In what way, and by what mechanism, does cotton kill?
    - chrisan 3y ago
      Hypothermia https://www.trailhiking.com.au/gear/cotton-kills/ https://www.trailhiking.com.au/gear/cotton-kills/
      - nextos 3y ago
        Sure, but Ventile was designed for exactly the opposite, to prevent hypothermia on WWII pilots while they were awaiting rescue in the North Sea. It was also worn in the summit of Mt Everest by Edmund Hillary as it is a great windstopper. It has nothing to do with regular cotton.

jancsika 3y ago

> Zero breathability (just like Gore-Tex in practice!) but because designers know this, they have excellent vents added, with waterproof zippers to close in extreme weather. That's not a distinction. Most Gore-tex or similar proprietary brands also have vents and waterproof zippers. In fact, for the vast majority of readers here on HN, pit zips and a storm flap on a seam-sealed jacket will keep them dry and keep the garment from wetting out in the vast majority of conditions. Heck, they could probably even get away with one of those super-lightweight packable windbreakers with a DWR from Mountain Hardware, Patagonia, etc. You could be out for maybe 25-30 minutes of driving rain before water finally gets in through the seams. That's more than enough time for most indoor cats here. :)

i_am_jl 3y ago

>As a backpacker and a sailor, I strongly feel that DWR/Gore-Tex stuff is garbage anyways- it's (only slightly) breathable when new, but when the coating wears after a few weeks or months, or gets dirty it becomes no longer hydrophobic, and the water sheets on completely blocking the pores. Most jackets that use a durable water repellant require the coating be regularly maintained (cleaning, re-heating) and re-applied after some time. Manufacturers usually say "years", but one year seems more realistic, even in a not-that-wet climate. That being said, I agree that Gore-Tex stuff is not waterproof enough for sailing. It's a compromise between waterproof/light-weight/packability/breathability.

11235813213455 3y ago

as a former sailor, lycra & noeprene were the way to go

runnerup 3y ago
Really depends on the area. If you’re sailing late in the season on Lake Superior or the North Sea, you might need a bit more than that when it’s below freezing and raining.

fouc 3y ago

For backpacking I would highly recommend a hiking umbrella (attached to backpack) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv-2-vAzTRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv-2-vAzTRw

tppiotrowski 3y ago

I have an ongoing joke with my wife that GoreTex is a myth. We both spend a lot of time on trail and once I splurged for GoreTex trail runners. The first time I wore them on snow I was amazed. My socks stayed dry. Three outings later they were no different than non-GoreTex trail runners. Anecdotal evidence but there seems to be a huge spectrum of GoreTex effectiveness across garments. I'm not sure how these items are manufactured. Is it possible some items have "more" Goretex or have it applied in a specific way to make them last longer than others?

cjblomqvist 3y ago
AFAIK Gore Tex are pretty rigid about how it's used with significant QC done within the factory using it to ensure a consistent experience. Then of course, I'm unsure how good that QC really is. (I work in the industry, but not directly with these sort of things).
- tppiotrowski 3y ago
  How is GoreTex applied? Is it a chemical that you spray on fabric or a fabric itself?
mordechai9000 3y ago
I think this is due to the membrane getting worn or punctured. Hiking boots now almost all have a goretex membrane, and they seem to last maybe one or two seasons of regular use before they leak. The leather can last many years with care, and the sole can be replaced, but once the goretex is shot you only have whatever water proofing you can apply to the leather itself.

usrusr 3y ago

“and the water sheets on completely blocking the pores“ Yeah, that's apparently the key problem: the shakedry product line (exposed membrane) was incredibly good at breathability, but I guess the usage restrictions (no backpacks that would rub off the membrane) should be taken seriously, considering the footprint.

meristohm 3y ago

How effective is oilskin? I see from a web searh that some people still use this, and it is potentially biodegradable with the right fabric and coating.

darkclouds 3y ago

Some of the sweat molecules are larger than the holes in some membranes! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7277079/#:~:text=These%20components%20are%20composed%20primarily,)%2C%20and%20unmetabolized%20pharmaceutical%20drugs https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7277079/#:~:tex....