5 ms·

Oh, yeah, that's no secret. Anything that touches food is lined to within an inch of its life with plastic. There's no escaping that. Every soda can you drink,

Oh, yeah, that's no secret. Anything that touches food is lined to within an inch of its life with plastic. There's no escaping that. Every soda can you drink, most of your reusable water bottles, all that supposedly eco-friendly packaging is loaded with plastic. And they can BPA-free you all they want, but they just keep shifting to newer, less tested substances that don't have a bad reputation yet.

morsch 3y ago
There's glass. Has been around for 3000+ years.
- veave 3y ago
  Glass sucks. That's why we stopped using it. It's expensive, it's brittle, it's heavy, it takes up a lot of space.
  - chaxor 3y ago
    Don't forget, often contains lead or other heavy metals.
    - adrian_b 3y ago
      This is true only for old or expensive crystal glasses. Most common soda-lime glass has negligible amounts of undesirable impurities, while borosilicate glass, like I use for my food and drinks, is even more pure and it contains almost nothing besides oxides of silicon, boron, sodium and aluminum, and it is inert in contact with food.
    - arp242 3y ago
      The only thing I can find on this: https://www.plymouth.ac.uk/news/toxic-substances-found-in-the-glass-and-decoration-of-alcoholic-beverage-bottles https://www.plymouth.ac.uk/news/toxic-substances-found-in-th... In short, only the enamelled decorations may contain heavy metals, which leech in the environment after use. This is a serious problem, but not with glass as such.
  - arp242 3y ago
    > That's why we stopped using it. Except we didn't; wine and spirits come almost exclusively in glass bottles, beer is frequently in glass (although cans are also used), almost every store will have some sodas and bottled water in glass, most people at home and restaurants use glasses made from, well, glass, etc.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      I don't use drugs. But my understanding is that plastic bottles aren't exactly uncommon even for spirits. And then with wines you get the boxed stuff. A carboard box, with plastic/foil bag inside.
      - throwbadubadu 3y ago
        Hm... I think in Europe most if not all of the alcohol comes in glass (or also still sometimes a tin can). Only some beer is in plastic bottles, but most would say that is a sin and a no go and never touch it.
      - arp242 3y ago
        I've only seen plastic bottles for very small bottles: the type you get in a mini-bar or airplane. If you go to a supermarket or off-license you typically won't find non-glass bottles for regular-sized wine or spirits.
        domh 3y ago
        Or strangely enough in the US cheap spirits often come in very large plastic bottles... think Costco brand tequila and vodka in 1.5l containers.
      - Balero 3y ago
        I do use drugs. I have never seen spirits in a plastic bottle, even own brand super market vodka. Boxed wine exists, and is a bit under half the market (by volume). Wine in glasses is still the majority of sales. Beer/cider/larger is sold in cans or bottles, with cans being about 2/3rd by volume.
  - omnicognate 3y ago
    Glass is awesome. It's reusable many times over and recyclable after that. We used to have systems to allow that reuse (bottle return) before somehow we ended up throwing away a plastic bottle (recycled at best) every time we buy a pint of milk. And contrary to sibling comment, glass containers don't leach heavy metals (or anything else) into food.
    - sneak 3y ago
      It's much heavier to cart around, which must be factored in. There's absolutely nothing inherently harmful in single use plastics if they get properly disposed of in landfill. Driving heavy glass back and forth from the bottling plant burns a lot of diesel unnecessarily.
      - morsch 3y ago
        In either case it's better not to transport bulk liquids more than necessary. Tap water, locally brewed beer.
    - devoutsalsa 3y ago
      To "recycle" glass, all you have to do is wash it.
      - morsch 3y ago
        That's what the grandparent sensibly referred to as reuse; you can do that, but you after you're done reusing it, you can also recycle it, that is, melt it down and make new glass from it.
    - jdietrich 3y ago
      Plastic bottles are more environmentally friendly. Glass requires massively more energy to manufacture, even using 100% recycled glass. Glass is heavy, so it's more expensive to transport. Collecting and washing bottles for re-use consumes a substantial amount of energy, which greatly increases the number of trips required to break even on the higher manufacturing impacts. The lifespan of a re-usable glass bottle is relatively very short, because glass is fragile. Glass compares poorly to HDPE when we factor in a realistic lifespan for glass and a realistic recycling rate for HDPE.
  - glimshe 3y ago
    Glass is amazing. You haven't tasted a beverage until you had it in a glass cup or bottle.
    - veave 3y ago
      Neither glass nor plastic add or detract from the flavour of a beverage.
      - throwbadubadu 3y ago
        What? Definitely happens, latest when one of the cheaper thinner bottle types have been sitting a bit too long in the hot the plastic taste becomes intense. And even if below noticing levels I think plastic molecules have been detected in such beverages, but uncertain here.
        veave 3y ago
        Do I really need to specify "unless you have put the bottles in the sun, which the label tells you not to do"?
        throwbadubadu 3y ago
        Which is sometimes unavoidable, but to be precise, the same even on hot days without direct sun exposure, lets stop pea counting. You will easily find studies that stuff from PET production like acetaldehyde goes into the beverage and impacts taste. But certainly also kind of what you are used to, always surprising for some folks to learn that for others chlorine water is associated with freshness, while clean water is a bit foul.
      - arp242 3y ago
        It does influence the flavour as coloured glass prevents the loss of flavour due to light radiation.
      - prepend 3y ago
        They affect the mouthfeel and experience of the beverage and the brain conflates all those with flavor.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  The issue is that while you can drink out of glassware or ceramics (I enjoy those for my coffee and tea), basically everything is carted around in plastic. If you want to buy water when you're out and about and want it in a glass bottle, your only choices are the "premium" brands that cost an arm and a leg. And, more generally, it's pretty darn hard to avoid plastics when buying food. When I was a kid, when my parents bought meat from the butcher, it would be wrapped in actual paper, or close enough that it would become unusable once home, and they had to move the meat to solid containers. Nowadays, that "paper" seems to be able to withstand whatever you throw at it. Packaged meats and cheeses always come wrapped in some kind of plastic. The only food I still see in glass containers are "canned" vegetables.
  - dghughes 3y ago
    > Nowadays, that "paper" seems to be able to withstand whatever you throw at it. I'd say it's silicone impregnated paper like parchment paper or probably is parchment paper which is paper coated with silicone.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - internet_user 3y ago
      Parchment paper is typically full of PFAS. way worse than PLA.
  - checkyoursudo 3y ago
    Even if you avoid plastic in the final retail product, there is a pretty good chance the raw materials were transported from the source or within processing facilities in plastic or plastic-lined containers.
- 3rd3 3y ago
  In this study recycled glass bottles were not better when it comes to microplastics. It's everywhere. In lids, detergents etc. In fact, single-use plastic bottles did best! http://igui-ecologia.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Small-sized-microplastics-and-pigmented-particles-in-bottled-mineral-water.pdf http://igui-ecologia.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/202...
guidedlight 3y ago
There is plastic-free paper and cardboard packaging. But that is normally loaded with PFAS which is used to stop paper from breaking down when exposed to food fats. However PFAS is a chemical that accumulates in the human body and has been linked to cancer, liver damager, decreased fertility, asthma, and thyroid damage. So yeah, you can remove the plastic lining from paper, but that severely decreases our quality of life.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  Maybe wrap it in five sheets of paper and wrap that in plastic. It should hold enough for the trip home and should help limit the amount of chemicals moving into the actual food. At home, you can move the food into glass containers for storage.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    One time I was grabbing Mexican food after an arduous night of clubbing with my friend Rachel, who wore green dreads, smelled of patchouli, and was a member of Food Not Bombs. We went to the taco stand which was known as the "drive-by shooting" place, and got carne asada quesadillas or something, and she told me to insist that they not use any packaging on them, but just put them in our hands. We "single-handedly" saved the planet that night!
- specialist 3y ago
  Waxed paper is a centuries old technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waxed_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waxed_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaseproof_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaseproof_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment_paper
chaxor 3y ago
Polyethylene doesn't seem that new or untested, and it's unlikely for it to contain rings, so it doesn't seem so bad. Perhaps the catalyst used that can't be pulled out after. Last time I checked I think it was a homogeneous chromium based catalyst that is used for PE, but it ends up being a very small amount left over.
- reaperman 3y ago
  PE can still contain aromatic plasticizers, especially when there's a need for them to be more flexible.
- adrian_b 3y ago
  Pure polyethylene and polypropylene are completely inert and safe in contact with food (if they are not heated). The problem is that it is currently impossible to know whether the PE or PP used in some plastic vessel is pure or it contains significant quantities of various fillers that have been added for reducing the cost of the material or the cost of various processing steps through which it has passed. The PE or PP vessels that are translucent and not colored are more likely to contain less undesirable fillers than the vessels that are opaque and/or colored. What is needed is to have stricter laws about food-contact materials, where the manufacturer must disclose the exact chemical composition of such materials and they must not be able to claim that this is proprietary information that may be kept secret, like today.
MayeulC 3y ago
I guess they could coat them in something else, like beeswax.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Are you crazy! Bees don't work for free!
- kbelder 3y ago
  My wife cut up a lot of cloth sheets... linens, I think... and bathed them in a boiling mix of beeswax and a couple other waxes and oils. (I believe leather was treated similarly to build ancient armor.) Messy process, but once they dried, they actually functioned pretty well as a reusable wrap and cover. Stiff enough to hold their shape, self-adherent, it can be used like cling wrap or aluminum foil, and could be cleaned and reused dozens of times. Not sure if it is a net positive or negative for the environment, but it's at least practical.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > > Anything that touches food is lined to within an inch of its life with plastic. > I guess they could coat them in something else, like beeswax Beeswax is a plastic, just not a petrochemical-derived plastic.
  - MayeulC 3y ago
    I mean, it's a polymer all right, so is starch, but the point is to use something watertight but still biodegradable. Other petroleum derivatives could be used as well, but I tend to think of beeswax as proven to be food-compatible, though I am not sure if this was rigorously tested. I thought answers to my comment would rather focus on the low melting point, making it hard to use for hot beverages (though 60°C is high enough for drinks). You are right of course, but the article mentioned PLA, IIRC? Reading more on this topic, it seems that PLA is biodegradable, but only in industrial, high temperature composters?

morsch 3y ago

There's glass. Has been around for 3000+ years.

veave 3y ago
Glass sucks. That's why we stopped using it. It's expensive, it's brittle, it's heavy, it takes up a lot of space.
- chaxor 3y ago
  Don't forget, often contains lead or other heavy metals.
  - adrian_b 3y ago
    This is true only for old or expensive crystal glasses. Most common soda-lime glass has negligible amounts of undesirable impurities, while borosilicate glass, like I use for my food and drinks, is even more pure and it contains almost nothing besides oxides of silicon, boron, sodium and aluminum, and it is inert in contact with food.
  - arp242 3y ago
    The only thing I can find on this: https://www.plymouth.ac.uk/news/toxic-substances-found-in-the-glass-and-decoration-of-alcoholic-beverage-bottles https://www.plymouth.ac.uk/news/toxic-substances-found-in-th... In short, only the enamelled decorations may contain heavy metals, which leech in the environment after use. This is a serious problem, but not with glass as such.
- arp242 3y ago
  > That's why we stopped using it. Except we didn't; wine and spirits come almost exclusively in glass bottles, beer is frequently in glass (although cans are also used), almost every store will have some sodas and bottled water in glass, most people at home and restaurants use glasses made from, well, glass, etc.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    I don't use drugs. But my understanding is that plastic bottles aren't exactly uncommon even for spirits. And then with wines you get the boxed stuff. A carboard box, with plastic/foil bag inside.
    - throwbadubadu 3y ago
      Hm... I think in Europe most if not all of the alcohol comes in glass (or also still sometimes a tin can). Only some beer is in plastic bottles, but most would say that is a sin and a no go and never touch it.
    - arp242 3y ago
      I've only seen plastic bottles for very small bottles: the type you get in a mini-bar or airplane. If you go to a supermarket or off-license you typically won't find non-glass bottles for regular-sized wine or spirits.
      - domh 3y ago
        Or strangely enough in the US cheap spirits often come in very large plastic bottles... think Costco brand tequila and vodka in 1.5l containers.
    - Balero 3y ago
      I do use drugs. I have never seen spirits in a plastic bottle, even own brand super market vodka. Boxed wine exists, and is a bit under half the market (by volume). Wine in glasses is still the majority of sales. Beer/cider/larger is sold in cans or bottles, with cans being about 2/3rd by volume.
- omnicognate 3y ago
  Glass is awesome. It's reusable many times over and recyclable after that. We used to have systems to allow that reuse (bottle return) before somehow we ended up throwing away a plastic bottle (recycled at best) every time we buy a pint of milk. And contrary to sibling comment, glass containers don't leach heavy metals (or anything else) into food.
  - sneak 3y ago
    It's much heavier to cart around, which must be factored in. There's absolutely nothing inherently harmful in single use plastics if they get properly disposed of in landfill. Driving heavy glass back and forth from the bottling plant burns a lot of diesel unnecessarily.
    - morsch 3y ago
      In either case it's better not to transport bulk liquids more than necessary. Tap water, locally brewed beer.
  - devoutsalsa 3y ago
    To "recycle" glass, all you have to do is wash it.
    - morsch 3y ago
      That's what the grandparent sensibly referred to as reuse; you can do that, but you after you're done reusing it, you can also recycle it, that is, melt it down and make new glass from it.
  - jdietrich 3y ago
    Plastic bottles are more environmentally friendly. Glass requires massively more energy to manufacture, even using 100% recycled glass. Glass is heavy, so it's more expensive to transport. Collecting and washing bottles for re-use consumes a substantial amount of energy, which greatly increases the number of trips required to break even on the higher manufacturing impacts. The lifespan of a re-usable glass bottle is relatively very short, because glass is fragile. Glass compares poorly to HDPE when we factor in a realistic lifespan for glass and a realistic recycling rate for HDPE.
- glimshe 3y ago
  Glass is amazing. You haven't tasted a beverage until you had it in a glass cup or bottle.
  - veave 3y ago
    Neither glass nor plastic add or detract from the flavour of a beverage.
    - throwbadubadu 3y ago
      What? Definitely happens, latest when one of the cheaper thinner bottle types have been sitting a bit too long in the hot the plastic taste becomes intense. And even if below noticing levels I think plastic molecules have been detected in such beverages, but uncertain here.
      - veave 3y ago
        Do I really need to specify "unless you have put the bottles in the sun, which the label tells you not to do"?
        throwbadubadu 3y ago
        Which is sometimes unavoidable, but to be precise, the same even on hot days without direct sun exposure, lets stop pea counting. You will easily find studies that stuff from PET production like acetaldehyde goes into the beverage and impacts taste. But certainly also kind of what you are used to, always surprising for some folks to learn that for others chlorine water is associated with freshness, while clean water is a bit foul.
    - arp242 3y ago
      It does influence the flavour as coloured glass prevents the loss of flavour due to light radiation.
    - prepend 3y ago
      They affect the mouthfeel and experience of the beverage and the brain conflates all those with flavor.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vladvasiliu 3y ago
The issue is that while you can drink out of glassware or ceramics (I enjoy those for my coffee and tea), basically everything is carted around in plastic. If you want to buy water when you're out and about and want it in a glass bottle, your only choices are the "premium" brands that cost an arm and a leg. And, more generally, it's pretty darn hard to avoid plastics when buying food. When I was a kid, when my parents bought meat from the butcher, it would be wrapped in actual paper, or close enough that it would become unusable once home, and they had to move the meat to solid containers. Nowadays, that "paper" seems to be able to withstand whatever you throw at it. Packaged meats and cheeses always come wrapped in some kind of plastic. The only food I still see in glass containers are "canned" vegetables.
- dghughes 3y ago
  > Nowadays, that "paper" seems to be able to withstand whatever you throw at it. I'd say it's silicone impregnated paper like parchment paper or probably is parchment paper which is paper coated with silicone.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - internet_user 3y ago
    Parchment paper is typically full of PFAS. way worse than PLA.
- checkyoursudo 3y ago
  Even if you avoid plastic in the final retail product, there is a pretty good chance the raw materials were transported from the source or within processing facilities in plastic or plastic-lined containers.
3rd3 3y ago
In this study recycled glass bottles were not better when it comes to microplastics. It's everywhere. In lids, detergents etc. In fact, single-use plastic bottles did best! http://igui-ecologia.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Small-sized-microplastics-and-pigmented-particles-in-bottled-mineral-water.pdf http://igui-ecologia.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/202...

guidedlight 3y ago

There is plastic-free paper and cardboard packaging. But that is normally loaded with PFAS which is used to stop paper from breaking down when exposed to food fats. However PFAS is a chemical that accumulates in the human body and has been linked to cancer, liver damager, decreased fertility, asthma, and thyroid damage. So yeah, you can remove the plastic lining from paper, but that severely decreases our quality of life.

vladvasiliu 3y ago
Maybe wrap it in five sheets of paper and wrap that in plastic. It should hold enough for the trip home and should help limit the amount of chemicals moving into the actual food. At home, you can move the food into glass containers for storage.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  One time I was grabbing Mexican food after an arduous night of clubbing with my friend Rachel, who wore green dreads, smelled of patchouli, and was a member of Food Not Bombs. We went to the taco stand which was known as the "drive-by shooting" place, and got carne asada quesadillas or something, and she told me to insist that they not use any packaging on them, but just put them in our hands. We "single-handedly" saved the planet that night!
specialist 3y ago
Waxed paper is a centuries old technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waxed_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waxed_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaseproof_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaseproof_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment_paper

chaxor 3y ago

Polyethylene doesn't seem that new or untested, and it's unlikely for it to contain rings, so it doesn't seem so bad. Perhaps the catalyst used that can't be pulled out after. Last time I checked I think it was a homogeneous chromium based catalyst that is used for PE, but it ends up being a very small amount left over.

reaperman 3y ago
PE can still contain aromatic plasticizers, especially when there's a need for them to be more flexible.
adrian_b 3y ago
Pure polyethylene and polypropylene are completely inert and safe in contact with food (if they are not heated). The problem is that it is currently impossible to know whether the PE or PP used in some plastic vessel is pure or it contains significant quantities of various fillers that have been added for reducing the cost of the material or the cost of various processing steps through which it has passed. The PE or PP vessels that are translucent and not colored are more likely to contain less undesirable fillers than the vessels that are opaque and/or colored. What is needed is to have stricter laws about food-contact materials, where the manufacturer must disclose the exact chemical composition of such materials and they must not be able to claim that this is proprietary information that may be kept secret, like today.

MayeulC 3y ago

I guess they could coat them in something else, like beeswax.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Are you crazy! Bees don't work for free!
kbelder 3y ago
My wife cut up a lot of cloth sheets... linens, I think... and bathed them in a boiling mix of beeswax and a couple other waxes and oils. (I believe leather was treated similarly to build ancient armor.) Messy process, but once they dried, they actually functioned pretty well as a reusable wrap and cover. Stiff enough to hold their shape, self-adherent, it can be used like cling wrap or aluminum foil, and could be cleaned and reused dozens of times. Not sure if it is a net positive or negative for the environment, but it's at least practical.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> > Anything that touches food is lined to within an inch of its life with plastic. > I guess they could coat them in something else, like beeswax Beeswax is a plastic, just not a petrochemical-derived plastic.
- MayeulC 3y ago
  I mean, it's a polymer all right, so is starch, but the point is to use something watertight but still biodegradable. Other petroleum derivatives could be used as well, but I tend to think of beeswax as proven to be food-compatible, though I am not sure if this was rigorously tested. I thought answers to my comment would rather focus on the low melting point, making it hard to use for hot beverages (though 60°C is high enough for drinks). You are right of course, but the article mentioned PLA, IIRC? Reading more on this topic, it seems that PLA is biodegradable, but only in industrial, high temperature composters?