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That "infinite flexibility" is the road network's greatest advantage and greatest curse: you can connect any two points because the network is built for individ

That "infinite flexibility" is the road network's greatest advantage and greatest curse: you can connect any two points because the network is built for individuals in private vehicles, not mass movements. Self-driving cars may make our highways more efficient, but they can't change the basic fact that a road with individual-sized cars on it carries far fewer people per square foot than mass transit does. (And note: we currently subsidize the hell out of our road network, in a way that's far less obvious to the public mind than our comparatively light subsidization of mass transit. It remains to be seen whether the average car trip is actually net cheaper.)

xnx 3y ago
That's a good reminder that there are a lot of hidden subsidies for roads too. I imagine that we'll always have roads, but rails systems are optional, so the cost of roads is a given. Widespread use of self-driving vehicles should dramatically reduce the amount of lanes that need to be maintained though. I'm familiar with the arguments about rail capacity vs cars, but I live by main road and train lines. The road is in use 24 hours a day, and the rails are mainly idle. My dream scenario is self-driving vehicles become ubiquitous and we replace all commuter rails systems with foot and bike paths.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  > The road is in use 24 hours a day, and the rails are mainly idle. This is a measurement error: you might see 300 cars in an hour and only two trains, but those 300 cars are carrying 600 people while the trains are carrying 1500 each. The road appears busy and the rail system idle, but the exact opposite is true in terms of volume of people moved. (It could also be true that the train system isn't well utilized in your area, but the fundamental point about scale and measurement is the same.) As others have pointed out elsewhere in the thread, the main cost of mass transit is actually labor, not the rails (or even trains) themselves. The US is somewhat behind the times in realizing this; just about everywhere I've been in Europe has healthy mass transit systems that run cheaper and more reliably due to increased automation.
  - xnx 3y ago
    Absolutely. I don't know how many cars/trucks/people are using the road (it's a highway, so it's a lot). I do know that the trains are mainly empty, just 40% of their pre-COVID usage. (Chicago)

xnx 3y ago

That's a good reminder that there are a lot of hidden subsidies for roads too. I imagine that we'll always have roads, but rails systems are optional, so the cost of roads is a given. Widespread use of self-driving vehicles should dramatically reduce the amount of lanes that need to be maintained though. I'm familiar with the arguments about rail capacity vs cars, but I live by main road and train lines. The road is in use 24 hours a day, and the rails are mainly idle. My dream scenario is self-driving vehicles become ubiquitous and we replace all commuter rails systems with foot and bike paths.

woodruffw 3y ago
> The road is in use 24 hours a day, and the rails are mainly idle. This is a measurement error: you might see 300 cars in an hour and only two trains, but those 300 cars are carrying 600 people while the trains are carrying 1500 each. The road appears busy and the rail system idle, but the exact opposite is true in terms of volume of people moved. (It could also be true that the train system isn't well utilized in your area, but the fundamental point about scale and measurement is the same.) As others have pointed out elsewhere in the thread, the main cost of mass transit is actually labor, not the rails (or even trains) themselves. The US is somewhat behind the times in realizing this; just about everywhere I've been in Europe has healthy mass transit systems that run cheaper and more reliably due to increased automation.
- xnx 3y ago
  Absolutely. I don't know how many cars/trucks/people are using the road (it's a highway, so it's a lot). I do know that the trains are mainly empty, just 40% of their pre-COVID usage. (Chicago)