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Looks like the same bait and switch Dr. K (Healthy Gamer) did. Put a real MD on the poster, and once they sign up hook your customers with people with 3 weeks o

by zeroq 3y ago

Looks like the same bait and switch Dr. K (Healthy Gamer) did. Put a real MD on the poster, and once they sign up hook your customers with people with 3 weeks of "professional training".

dr_dshiv 3y ago
But honestly, that can be a win. A good process (with a person you resonate with) can go further than a medical degree. Personal opinion, based on lots of experience.
- christalwang 3y ago
  Thanks for this comment—you've nailed it. The service we're providing in it's very nature is not medical and instead encompasses support functions like accountability, celebration of the member, helping the member feel "seen and heard", etc. Many of our members have not got that from their doctors, nor do they expect it given the doctors role. We advocate for layering the services you need together (e.g. I have a doctor, psychiatrist, coach, right now.) and our coaches work hard to communicate the role of a coach and the boundaries.
  - uoaei 3y ago
    Providing "not a medical service" but advertising it using explicitly medical terminology appears to be the root of the problem, don't you think? If a fitness trainer started throwing around things like "clients reported reduction of sciatica symptoms" you would of course assume they are licensed physical therapists and that you are treating sciatica. They could just as easily say "pain management through exercise" and not get caught in that kind of credential limbo.
christalwang 3y ago
We definitely are not trying to pass as a medical service. However, we do our due diligence to make sure we have medical staff on board to advise us on our protocols, services, train our staff, supervise our staff, and to stand in if there is any escalation needed. We hope it's clear Dr. Anil himself is not coaching and very happy to make things more clear by adding his title to the front of the card.
- mike_d 3y ago
  > We definitely are not trying to pass as a medical service. > HSA/FSA-eligible. Try harder?
  - tomjakubowski 3y ago
    healthcare and medicine aren't synonymous psychologists, mental health therapists, physical therapists, occupational therapists, pharmacists, and so on, do not practice medicine - but the services they provide can be paid for with HSA and FSA money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_health_professions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_health_professions
    - mike_d 3y ago
      Technicalities don't matter, explicitly calling it out creates a false connection in readers brains. Like how some snake oil treatments say "FDA cleared" because they know consumers don't know what it means.
      - mollybee 3y ago
        I disagree. This isn't about technicalities. I think it's about you assuming that others draw a "false connection" just because you saw one. Most people don't see HSA/FSA and automatically assume that a service is medical care. HSA/FSA funds are for healthcare-RELATED expenses and cover lots of things that aren't medical co-pays or medication: sunscreen, condoms, breast milk pumps, glasses or contacts, health-related home improvements (e.g., wheelchair ramps, hand rails), transportation for medical care, weight loss programs, menstrual care products, band-aids etc. All of those things are healthcare-related, but they're clearly not medical care. There's nothing wrong with stating the objective reality that the cost of Shimmer is HSA/FSA-eligible. HSA/FSA-eligibility is directly relevant to one of Shimmer's key goals, making ADHD coaching accessible to people who can't afford traditional coaching. Using HSA/FSA funds brings down the overall cost significantly, so it's going to be a factor when budgeting. It isn't even close the same thing as snake oil treatments claiming to be "FDA cleared." Consumers may not realize that "FDA cleared" is an absolutely meaningless phrase, but I think we can agree that most adults know the difference between a condom and a licensed medical professional dispensing FDA-approved medication. "HSA/FSA-eligible" is a legitimate, accurate phrase to describe the services Shimmer provides. Plus, anyone who has a HSA/FSA has most likely received education or literature about it through the company providing it for them (typically their employer). They're not reading this post thinking, "Since I can pay for this with the account that I use to buy sunscreen and band-aids, I will surely see a physician and get drugs." Personally, I thought, "Gee, I wish I had a HSA/FSA so I could use it to pay for this health-related service." All brains are different, especially ADHD brains. It's unhelpful to assume they'll all draw the same false conclusion as you did.
syncbehind 3y ago
Just recently found about his youtube channel and have found his content to be quite beneficial. Did not know that he'd done this. Can I read about this anywhere? There seems to be a lot of folks who are critical about him.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  I don't know about the details, but even simply from watching HealthyGamerGG videos (which are quite good), the way he pushes his group counseling service(?) using essentially volunteers(??) who are licensed through him does seem suspect. Guess enshittification applies even to internet individuals.
  - haliskerbas 3y ago
    I mentioned this in the main comment but I believe if you try to sign up they make it clear it’s not professional mental health service.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      That's fair. I'm not accusing him of pretending it's professional. More like it seems dubious of him trying to push his side hustle in his regular programming. It's like he's presenting a paid service as the natural progression from his free advice. And as if his trained coaches are a proxy for himself.
haliskerbas 3y ago
I think calling Dr. K a bait and switch is a bit unfair. They make it very explicit before signing up that it’s not medical care and that it’s just a coach and not a mental health professional. Unless they changed the onboarding process, it’s made obvious to the user what it is.
- mollybee 3y ago
  You're absolutely right about the onboarding process. It's very clear that Shimmer does not provide medical care. I think some people just don't realize that doctors exist outside of medical practices. "MD" is a title earned by completing a medical degree, not a job title. There's no reason to assume someone with an MD is acting in the capacity of medication-dispensing doctor at all times. Medical expertise is clearly relevant for the position of "clinical advisor" for an ADHD-related service. Many, if not most, Shimmer users use coaching as an add-on to first line medical treatments and/or therapy. It makes perfect sense to have someone on board who's well-versed in the medical side of ADHD treatment. Operating an ADHD coaching program without someone knowledgeable in that area would be downright dangerous. I'm glad Shimmer has a MD on their team to cover all the bases.

by zeroq 3y ago

Looks like the same bait and switch Dr. K (Healthy Gamer) did. Put a real MD on the poster, and once they sign up hook your customers with people with 3 weeks of "professional training".

dr_dshiv 3y ago

But honestly, that can be a win. A good process (with a person you resonate with) can go further than a medical degree. Personal opinion, based on lots of experience.

christalwang 3y ago
Thanks for this comment—you've nailed it. The service we're providing in it's very nature is not medical and instead encompasses support functions like accountability, celebration of the member, helping the member feel "seen and heard", etc. Many of our members have not got that from their doctors, nor do they expect it given the doctors role. We advocate for layering the services you need together (e.g. I have a doctor, psychiatrist, coach, right now.) and our coaches work hard to communicate the role of a coach and the boundaries.
- uoaei 3y ago
  Providing "not a medical service" but advertising it using explicitly medical terminology appears to be the root of the problem, don't you think? If a fitness trainer started throwing around things like "clients reported reduction of sciatica symptoms" you would of course assume they are licensed physical therapists and that you are treating sciatica. They could just as easily say "pain management through exercise" and not get caught in that kind of credential limbo.

christalwang 3y ago

We definitely are not trying to pass as a medical service. However, we do our due diligence to make sure we have medical staff on board to advise us on our protocols, services, train our staff, supervise our staff, and to stand in if there is any escalation needed. We hope it's clear Dr. Anil himself is not coaching and very happy to make things more clear by adding his title to the front of the card.

mike_d 3y ago
> We definitely are not trying to pass as a medical service. > HSA/FSA-eligible. Try harder?
- tomjakubowski 3y ago
  healthcare and medicine aren't synonymous psychologists, mental health therapists, physical therapists, occupational therapists, pharmacists, and so on, do not practice medicine - but the services they provide can be paid for with HSA and FSA money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_health_professions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_health_professions
  - mike_d 3y ago
    Technicalities don't matter, explicitly calling it out creates a false connection in readers brains. Like how some snake oil treatments say "FDA cleared" because they know consumers don't know what it means.
    - mollybee 3y ago
      I disagree. This isn't about technicalities. I think it's about you assuming that others draw a "false connection" just because you saw one. Most people don't see HSA/FSA and automatically assume that a service is medical care. HSA/FSA funds are for healthcare-RELATED expenses and cover lots of things that aren't medical co-pays or medication: sunscreen, condoms, breast milk pumps, glasses or contacts, health-related home improvements (e.g., wheelchair ramps, hand rails), transportation for medical care, weight loss programs, menstrual care products, band-aids etc. All of those things are healthcare-related, but they're clearly not medical care. There's nothing wrong with stating the objective reality that the cost of Shimmer is HSA/FSA-eligible. HSA/FSA-eligibility is directly relevant to one of Shimmer's key goals, making ADHD coaching accessible to people who can't afford traditional coaching. Using HSA/FSA funds brings down the overall cost significantly, so it's going to be a factor when budgeting. It isn't even close the same thing as snake oil treatments claiming to be "FDA cleared." Consumers may not realize that "FDA cleared" is an absolutely meaningless phrase, but I think we can agree that most adults know the difference between a condom and a licensed medical professional dispensing FDA-approved medication. "HSA/FSA-eligible" is a legitimate, accurate phrase to describe the services Shimmer provides. Plus, anyone who has a HSA/FSA has most likely received education or literature about it through the company providing it for them (typically their employer). They're not reading this post thinking, "Since I can pay for this with the account that I use to buy sunscreen and band-aids, I will surely see a physician and get drugs." Personally, I thought, "Gee, I wish I had a HSA/FSA so I could use it to pay for this health-related service." All brains are different, especially ADHD brains. It's unhelpful to assume they'll all draw the same false conclusion as you did.

syncbehind 3y ago

Just recently found about his youtube channel and have found his content to be quite beneficial. Did not know that he'd done this. Can I read about this anywhere? There seems to be a lot of folks who are critical about him.

Apocryphon 3y ago
I don't know about the details, but even simply from watching HealthyGamerGG videos (which are quite good), the way he pushes his group counseling service(?) using essentially volunteers(??) who are licensed through him does seem suspect. Guess enshittification applies even to internet individuals.
- haliskerbas 3y ago
  I mentioned this in the main comment but I believe if you try to sign up they make it clear it’s not professional mental health service.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    That's fair. I'm not accusing him of pretending it's professional. More like it seems dubious of him trying to push his side hustle in his regular programming. It's like he's presenting a paid service as the natural progression from his free advice. And as if his trained coaches are a proxy for himself.

haliskerbas 3y ago

I think calling Dr. K a bait and switch is a bit unfair. They make it very explicit before signing up that it’s not medical care and that it’s just a coach and not a mental health professional. Unless they changed the onboarding process, it’s made obvious to the user what it is.

mollybee 3y ago
You're absolutely right about the onboarding process. It's very clear that Shimmer does not provide medical care. I think some people just don't realize that doctors exist outside of medical practices. "MD" is a title earned by completing a medical degree, not a job title. There's no reason to assume someone with an MD is acting in the capacity of medication-dispensing doctor at all times. Medical expertise is clearly relevant for the position of "clinical advisor" for an ADHD-related service. Many, if not most, Shimmer users use coaching as an add-on to first line medical treatments and/or therapy. It makes perfect sense to have someone on board who's well-versed in the medical side of ADHD treatment. Operating an ADHD coaching program without someone knowledgeable in that area would be downright dangerous. I'm glad Shimmer has a MD on their team to cover all the bases.