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> Installing is a nightmare too with the online account requirement. My nightmare, before the account shenanigans, was finding a mouse for my HP laptop, whose

> Installing is a nightmare too with the online account requirement. My nightmare, before the account shenanigans, was finding a mouse for my HP laptop, whose trackpad didn't work OOB. Then, once I'd managed to go through the installation, the account thing was a PITA because the Intel wifi card wasn't supported, and this laptop doesn't have a wired network port. I was actually going to use an MS account (this is a work computer, and they're all in on MS). But I couldn't set it up without jumping through the hoops of creating a local account first and then grabbing the wifi drivers by booting Linux. This happened mid-2023 with a 2020 model laptop. Also, HP recommends Windows. Arch Linux worked fully out of the box.

justsomehnguy 3y ago
Ah, yes, Gates personally banned the drivers for this 2020 WiFi cards. Or maybe it was Intel who did a bazillion of cards with a minor diffs and/or didn't ask MS to add this flavour to the default driver set, shipped with Windows install media?
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  I haven't used a device that Windows didn't ship drivers for In twenty years!
  - tuetuopay 3y ago
    I recently had the (dis)pleasure to install Windows 10 on a Dell XPS laptop from 2018. The Windows installer had no drivers for the nvme controller _that is provided by the CPU itself_, so a platform controller. Oh and getting the installer to recognize the drivers was much harder than the usual "stick the files on a thumb drive, plug to laptop, tell the installer". I had to generate a custom Windows ISO with the drivers preinstalled, for which the process is described by a single indian dude on a website very sparsely indexed by google.
    - justsomehnguy 3y ago
      Yep, just as I said in the previous comment: everyone is at fault but for sure it wasn't the vendor of the device! How the vendor could be the culprit in doing something what would cripple the boot/install of the OS? Nonsense!
      - tuetuopay 3y ago
        The vendor? Ha! Let me laugh. Would this have tripped on some obscure device specific to Dell laptops, sure, I would understand. (like their blimey fingerprint reader). But this is the standard NVMe controller on this generation of intel CPUs. The drivers are common for _most intel platforms_: the Intel Rapid Storage Technology. As somebody else pointed out, Linux fares much better in this space. All devices are properly recognized out of the box, including this bog-standard NVMe controller.
        justsomehnguy 3y ago
        > Intel Rapid Storage Technology. This is a SATA AHCI/RAID controller. It has nothing to do with NVMe. Also iRST was (and looks like still is) the most troublesome driver for Windows since it's introduction: there are bazillion of variants and vendor sub-variants with different VEN/DEV IDs, so it's CAN'T be identified by some generic driver! And yes, it was (and from your description - is) the one stupid driver which couldn't be loaded at the running install, because for somegodfuckingreason it did shenanigans when loaded 'online' and Windows couldn't use it as the install destination. This is not (and were not) a problem with any other SATA and SAS controller I ever encountered, from cheap-ass Silicon Image ones to $2000 LSI/HPE ones. Only Intel, only ICH/R. There is no such thing as generic driver for a hundreds and thousands of variants of some vendor specific device if the vendor did not provided such driver. Your loved Linux works there only because the kernel module which supports Intel ICH\R chipset (which provides iRST) has those bazillion of PCI VEN/DEV IDs assigned to it and this is why it works 'out of the box' on Linux kernel. Intel NEVER provided such driver for Windows and never would. Eg: there is a thing called `HPE Smart Array SR Gen10`. It's a series of RAID controllers made by HPE. Except `HPE Smart Array S100i SR Gen10 SW RAID`, aka S-class. Notice `SW` there? That's just a regular Intel ICH/R. You can manually install Intel ICH/iRST driver on that `HPE controller` and it would work, because it's just a regular Intel ICH/R. You know what wouldn't happen? Windows wouldn't install `the default` Intel ICH driver on it, because: there is no such thing as `the default SATA` driver there is no such thing as `the default Intel SATA` driver all `Intel SATA` drivers built-in in Windows install media do have the PCI VEN/DEV IDs listed for INTEL (VEN8086), not HP/E, DELL, Lenovo or whoever.[0] You can shit on Microsoft and Windows all you want, but the problem here is strictly with the vendor, Intel. As soon as Intel would provide MS with the `default Intel SATA` driver what would have all VEN/DEV combos for all their licensed and white-labeled controllers - you would be able to install Windows client SKUs on all these controllers without slipstreaming the drivers in the install media. Source: I know things, I lost too many hours of my life wrestlning with Intel ICH/R [0] ffs, just open the .inf you slipstreamed and look for IDs there.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Firewire...
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  Those are pretty standard Intel cards installed on laptops with Intel CPUs. ax201 or something. If "nothing-ever-works-without-fiddling" Linux is able to ship drivers for that card and work out of the box, I don't see why windows couldn't ship with drivers for that, especially since they seem to get updates via Windows update, so ms has them. Plus, if you're going to force people to use an internet account, maybe make sure that they'll actually be able to get online? Or maybe the whole point of not supporting the touchpad was to weed off the faint of heart and send them off to Linux?
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    > Those are pretty standard Intel cards installed on laptops with Intel CPUs. ax201 or something If they were 'pretty standard' then they would be in the default list of drivers shipped with install media. If they weren't in the install media then: your media is older than the drivers your device isn't 'standard' device vendor doesn't give a shit if you can reinstall Windows and get the working WiFi out of the box > , I don't see why windows couldn't ship with drivers for that Because Intel does not give a fuck. It's that simple and it is borderline ridiculous how linux fanboys can't accept what Windows has a completely different driver model compared to built-in-the-kernel way of Linux. And again, where did you got your install media for Windows? Directly from https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows10 https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows10 ? Somewhere else? > Or maybe the whole point of not supporting the touchpad Can you ask Synaptic (or whoever made that touchpad) why there is no drivers for their touchpad in the default Windows install media or why it's not just a simple HID pointing device? Or again that's Nadella's fault or whoever at the lead now?
    - callalex 3y ago
      Your combative behavior here is entirely unwarranted. The only person blaming random chief executives here is you. If the drivers work fine in a standard Linux install, it is obviously not some obscure hardware setup.
      - justsomehnguy 3y ago

justsomehnguy 3y ago

Ah, yes, Gates personally banned the drivers for this 2020 WiFi cards. Or maybe it was Intel who did a bazillion of cards with a minor diffs and/or didn't ask MS to add this flavour to the default driver set, shipped with Windows install media?

mrguyorama 3y ago
I haven't used a device that Windows didn't ship drivers for In twenty years!
- tuetuopay 3y ago
  I recently had the (dis)pleasure to install Windows 10 on a Dell XPS laptop from 2018. The Windows installer had no drivers for the nvme controller _that is provided by the CPU itself_, so a platform controller. Oh and getting the installer to recognize the drivers was much harder than the usual "stick the files on a thumb drive, plug to laptop, tell the installer". I had to generate a custom Windows ISO with the drivers preinstalled, for which the process is described by a single indian dude on a website very sparsely indexed by google.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    Yep, just as I said in the previous comment: everyone is at fault but for sure it wasn't the vendor of the device! How the vendor could be the culprit in doing something what would cripple the boot/install of the OS? Nonsense!
    - tuetuopay 3y ago
      The vendor? Ha! Let me laugh. Would this have tripped on some obscure device specific to Dell laptops, sure, I would understand. (like their blimey fingerprint reader). But this is the standard NVMe controller on this generation of intel CPUs. The drivers are common for _most intel platforms_: the Intel Rapid Storage Technology. As somebody else pointed out, Linux fares much better in this space. All devices are properly recognized out of the box, including this bog-standard NVMe controller.
      - justsomehnguy 3y ago
        > Intel Rapid Storage Technology. This is a SATA AHCI/RAID controller. It has nothing to do with NVMe. Also iRST was (and looks like still is) the most troublesome driver for Windows since it's introduction: there are bazillion of variants and vendor sub-variants with different VEN/DEV IDs, so it's CAN'T be identified by some generic driver! And yes, it was (and from your description - is) the one stupid driver which couldn't be loaded at the running install, because for somegodfuckingreason it did shenanigans when loaded 'online' and Windows couldn't use it as the install destination. This is not (and were not) a problem with any other SATA and SAS controller I ever encountered, from cheap-ass Silicon Image ones to $2000 LSI/HPE ones. Only Intel, only ICH/R. There is no such thing as generic driver for a hundreds and thousands of variants of some vendor specific device if the vendor did not provided such driver. Your loved Linux works there only because the kernel module which supports Intel ICH\R chipset (which provides iRST) has those bazillion of PCI VEN/DEV IDs assigned to it and this is why it works 'out of the box' on Linux kernel. Intel NEVER provided such driver for Windows and never would. Eg: there is a thing called `HPE Smart Array SR Gen10`. It's a series of RAID controllers made by HPE. Except `HPE Smart Array S100i SR Gen10 SW RAID`, aka S-class. Notice `SW` there? That's just a regular Intel ICH/R. You can manually install Intel ICH/iRST driver on that `HPE controller` and it would work, because it's just a regular Intel ICH/R. You know what wouldn't happen? Windows wouldn't install `the default` Intel ICH driver on it, because: there is no such thing as `the default SATA` driver there is no such thing as `the default Intel SATA` driver all `Intel SATA` drivers built-in in Windows install media do have the PCI VEN/DEV IDs listed for INTEL (VEN8086), not HP/E, DELL, Lenovo or whoever.[0] You can shit on Microsoft and Windows all you want, but the problem here is strictly with the vendor, Intel. As soon as Intel would provide MS with the `default Intel SATA` driver what would have all VEN/DEV combos for all their licensed and white-labeled controllers - you would be able to install Windows client SKUs on all these controllers without slipstreaming the drivers in the install media. Source: I know things, I lost too many hours of my life wrestlning with Intel ICH/R [0] ffs, just open the .inf you slipstreamed and look for IDs there.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Firewire...
vladvasiliu 3y ago
Those are pretty standard Intel cards installed on laptops with Intel CPUs. ax201 or something. If "nothing-ever-works-without-fiddling" Linux is able to ship drivers for that card and work out of the box, I don't see why windows couldn't ship with drivers for that, especially since they seem to get updates via Windows update, so ms has them. Plus, if you're going to force people to use an internet account, maybe make sure that they'll actually be able to get online? Or maybe the whole point of not supporting the touchpad was to weed off the faint of heart and send them off to Linux?
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  > Those are pretty standard Intel cards installed on laptops with Intel CPUs. ax201 or something If they were 'pretty standard' then they would be in the default list of drivers shipped with install media. If they weren't in the install media then: your media is older than the drivers your device isn't 'standard' device vendor doesn't give a shit if you can reinstall Windows and get the working WiFi out of the box > , I don't see why windows couldn't ship with drivers for that Because Intel does not give a fuck. It's that simple and it is borderline ridiculous how linux fanboys can't accept what Windows has a completely different driver model compared to built-in-the-kernel way of Linux. And again, where did you got your install media for Windows? Directly from https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows10 https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows10 ? Somewhere else? > Or maybe the whole point of not supporting the touchpad Can you ask Synaptic (or whoever made that touchpad) why there is no drivers for their touchpad in the default Windows install media or why it's not just a simple HID pointing device? Or again that's Nadella's fault or whoever at the lead now?
  - callalex 3y ago
    Your combative behavior here is entirely unwarranted. The only person blaming random chief executives here is you. If the drivers work fine in a standard Linux install, it is obviously not some obscure hardware setup.
    - justsomehnguy 3y ago