3 ms·

I apologise for the comparison, as your thoughts are very well-structured, and in my head it almost sounds like an insult. But this kind of thinking ("more disc

I apologise for the comparison, as your thoughts are very well-structured, and in my head it almost sounds like an insult. But this kind of thinking ("more discipline minimises the problems related to suboptimal languages") is kind of like Uncle Bob's test-zealotry - i.e. you don't need static typing/AOP/linting/any kind of bug-reducing feature, because you can just write more tests (even if it's painful or spurious) Sure, it is possible to be very disciplined, avoid messy control flow, be careful with mutation, etc.... then good luck trying to get everyone else to get on board with a very niche coding style, unless if you have the strict authority to enforce it. Sadly, in most cases you don't, so you are stuck with the non-verifiable madness. In an ideal world, this would work - but in an ideal world, we would also be using better languages with way better guarantees and compile-time checks.

jerf 3y ago
I don't really get your point, other than trying to insult everyone. It's fairly well established that in the real world, strict functional programming languages aren't an option. So who really cares that you keep railing on about them? Until they're an actual option, we are not being "zealots" when we can't use them... not "refuse" to, can't... and, yes, you're just being an insulting jerk with no real options to offer anyone. If you want to be wistful for a world where we could use better languages... get in line. It's a long one. But stop expressing it in the form of insulting other people. You are not the smartest in the room, you are not the only one who has grappled with the issues, and if you'd stop going out of your way to insult everyone else, maybe you could listen to and learn from people offering solutions. Even if they aren't perfect; it's hardly as if you're offering a perfect one either. You aren't offering one at all.
- yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
  > It's fairly well established that in the real world, strict functional programming languages aren't an option. This just isn't true. We write essentially 100% Haskell where I work. All day, every day. Have done for years. We have a "real world" business, with real customers, who pay real money.
- Pannoniae 3y ago
  Sure, but if we are talking about a place where let's say functional programming is off-limits entirely (note that I wasn't strictly talking about functional programming in my previous posts; I was talking about anything, any paradigm or tool which helps write more sound, more provable, more stable and less buggy programs)... then the "discipline yourself and enjoy the benefits of FP in less capable languages" will not work either, because in that place, they clearly don't recognise the benefits, the language doesn't encourage it either, so they'll just write the average code as usual. I am not insulting people personally, I am insulting the "worse is better" culture which is prevalent in the profession. No one has an immutable opinion about this, and I do not think that looking down upon an opinion or set of beliefs is a hostile thing. In a (slightly weird) way, it's actually constructive because it might plant a seed of thought in people that it's possible to do better. I'm doing the opposite of looking down at or insulting people here - I am assuming they are rational and capable of thinking, they just haven't encountered a different mindset than the prevalent and trendy one, and that's a perfectly fine thing. "Developing/using better tools, languages and trying to change developer culture" is a solution. Sure, not a silver bullet or something achievable quickly or easily, but on a smaller scale, it's definitely possible to achieve success.

jerf 3y ago

I don't really get your point, other than trying to insult everyone. It's fairly well established that in the real world, strict functional programming languages aren't an option. So who really cares that you keep railing on about them? Until they're an actual option, we are not being "zealots" when we can't use them... not "refuse" to, can't... and, yes, you're just being an insulting jerk with no real options to offer anyone. If you want to be wistful for a world where we could use better languages... get in line. It's a long one. But stop expressing it in the form of insulting other people. You are not the smartest in the room, you are not the only one who has grappled with the issues, and if you'd stop going out of your way to insult everyone else, maybe you could listen to and learn from people offering solutions. Even if they aren't perfect; it's hardly as if you're offering a perfect one either. You aren't offering one at all.

yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
> It's fairly well established that in the real world, strict functional programming languages aren't an option. This just isn't true. We write essentially 100% Haskell where I work. All day, every day. Have done for years. We have a "real world" business, with real customers, who pay real money.
Pannoniae 3y ago
Sure, but if we are talking about a place where let's say functional programming is off-limits entirely (note that I wasn't strictly talking about functional programming in my previous posts; I was talking about anything, any paradigm or tool which helps write more sound, more provable, more stable and less buggy programs)... then the "discipline yourself and enjoy the benefits of FP in less capable languages" will not work either, because in that place, they clearly don't recognise the benefits, the language doesn't encourage it either, so they'll just write the average code as usual. I am not insulting people personally, I am insulting the "worse is better" culture which is prevalent in the profession. No one has an immutable opinion about this, and I do not think that looking down upon an opinion or set of beliefs is a hostile thing. In a (slightly weird) way, it's actually constructive because it might plant a seed of thought in people that it's possible to do better. I'm doing the opposite of looking down at or insulting people here - I am assuming they are rational and capable of thinking, they just haven't encountered a different mindset than the prevalent and trendy one, and that's a perfectly fine thing. "Developing/using better tools, languages and trying to change developer culture" is a solution. Sure, not a silver bullet or something achievable quickly or easily, but on a smaller scale, it's definitely possible to achieve success.