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Logic Lab
- nanna 3y agoDoes anyone have suggestions as to how to learn about electronics in general - resistors, transistors, all those things that make up even just basic circuit boards which are all magic to me?
- jmhammond 3y agoI know it is targeted at kids, but I think Snap Circuits is pretty great. All the electronic components are attached using what are effectively clothing snaps. But they’re all real electronic components and you can make really interesting things. The books walk you through from very basics to more advanced and help you learn the basics. I learned from it playing with it with my son!
- jwhatever 3y agoI would recommend getting an Arduino kit with a breadboard.
- arein3 3y agoArduino kits are a good first step, but they need to be followed by more complex projects.
- arein3 3y agoYou can make your own project, with arduino and a bunch of components. There should be a project that will require use of different techniques, like using a transistor instead of a relay, using resistors to not burn up components, using a voltage divider circuit (requires 2 resistors), and other techniques. I am a beginner, so it would be hard to suggest what project to implement. I mainly used resistors to not burn the arduino I/O pins, and voltage divider circuit to step down the voltage for components with voltage different than 5v.
- logarhythmic 3y agoThe books Make: Electronics and Learning The Art of Electronics are pretty good hands on resources.
- DoingIsLearning 3y agoEverybody will probably recommend a bunch of books or MOOCs with varying degrees of practicality but if you want to learn in the sense of building some sort of intuition, then just buy: - A large breadboard - A battery holder - An online kit with an assortment of passive components (resistors, capacitors, inductors) - A cheap USB oscilloscope Some of these kits even include things like FETs, opamps, 555 timers etc. Which really stretches what you can build. Then just look online for circuits that you find interesting, build them and probe them (with the oscilloscope). The closer you get to building something you find useful the more engaging the experience will be.
- _Microft 3y agoIf you want a bunch of ideas what to do with the venerable 555 timer, have a look here: https://www.555-timer-circuits.com/ https://www.555-timer-circuits.com/
- ms512 3y agoThe Navy Electricity and Electronics Training Series (NEETS) are a good high level overview that can help you learn which areas you want to explore further. Specifically to the questions you asked, module 1 will give you the overview on basic circuits. [1] https://archive.org/details/neetsmodules_202003/ https://archive.org/details/neetsmodules_202003/
- jfoutz 3y agoI'm sure someone will have a much better recommendation. Do you have an old physics book? Working a few or a lot of simple voltage divider problems, to just really nail down V=IR is helpful. a ton of digital stuff can be thought of as snapshots between two states. might give you some help reading schematics as well. a pretty ham fisted analogy, imagine a full glass of water on the left, and an empty glass of water on the right. you pour the water from the full glass into the empty glass. There is a BOATLOAD of physics happening there. but all you really care about is Left glass full -> left glass empty. easy peasy. if you're comfortable with https://nandgame.com https://nandgame.com you've pretty much got all you need to know how computers work. the last bit is pretty much, how do you use a transistor to make a nand gate? it blew my mind to find out it's just - https://mathcenter.oxford.emory.edu/site/cs170/nandFromTransistors/ https://mathcenter.oxford.emory.edu/site/cs170/nandFromTrans... Stuff that's changing is tougher, like radios or whatever. digital is sort of steady -> chaos -> steady. analog you care a lot about all the little partial derivatives. The ben eater videos maybe? https://eater.net/8bit/ https://eater.net/8bit/ He'll walk you through a lot of basic electronics in a pretty casual way. I wish I could give you something more "sure fire way to learn electronics" but my knowledge is pretty haphazard. that stuff helped me.
- sanderjd 3y agoI was going to recommend Ben Eater's videos and kits as well. I'm not-so-patiently waiting for my oldest kid to be ready to work through those with me.
- quaddo 3y agoWhen I was about 30 and wanted to scratch the same itch, I found an introductory electronics course being run at my local community college. From distant memory, it definitely covered off resistors, capacitors, coils, Ohm's Law, then worked its way to transistors and I think op amps. Somewhere along the way we got into the basics of creating logic gates, which also served to fill a void I had in my understanding of computers. At a much younger age, I was interested in amateur radio. As luck would have it, I learned of a night school course being held at one of the local high schools that was meant to teach you everything you needed to know to get your license. The instructor (late 20s, if I had to guess) really knew his stuff. I think this gave me a far better grasp of the relevant electromagnetic and electronics theory and practice than I feel is made available through present-day amateur radio "memorize the answers and some context around them" teaching materials. My point is, if you want to stretch your understanding of electronics, it's possible a local ham might be another good option to consider.
- aio2 3y agoHave you tried using a breadboard? That'll give a hands-on experience. Try the Khan Academy Electronics course if you want to know the science behind the stuff.
- teawrecks 3y agothe sparkfun videos give a pretty good intro to the kinds of parts they sell. Also, if you're only interested in small hobbyist circuits, it will simplify things if you only think about DC. AC is a rabbit hole of electrical engineering and physics complexity that you may not be interested in quite yet.
- baz00 3y agoLearn maths first, right up to calculus. It'll hurt a lot less and improve your life anyway. You can wire up circuits without knowing much but without maths it's difficult to build anything more than trivial stuff on your own with an objective set out to "I want to solve problem X". Until then you're an assembly worker wobbling on the shoulders of various dubiously designed assemblies put out by people who shouldn't be allowed to do it (Forest Mimms is an example). Consider a transistor is a voltage-controlled current source (TRANSfer resISTOR) as a model and the head scratching starts. Why is just as important as doing it.
- ta988 3y agoTake one of those kits for kids, play and experiment. Build your intuition. Then you can go with the theory little by little as needed. I would recommend against going theory first as it is often overwhelming and discouraging.
- tomatotomato37 3y agoThere used to be these massive electronic experiment kits you'd get from like Radioshack during the early 2000s. Like this: [0][1]. I haven't found any all-in-ones with the same depth sold today but maybe someone else has found something. [0] https://pisces.bbystatic.com/image2/BestBuy_US/images/products/1461/1461686_sa.jpg https://pisces.bbystatic.com/image2/BestBuy_US/images/produc... [1] https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/oNgAAOSwiZ9k1T1y/s-l1600.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/oNgAAOSwiZ9k1T1y/s-l1600.jpg
- buescher 3y agoI think Elenco still sells that kind of thing.
- quercusa 3y agoBack in the 80s, Forrest Mims was 'the guy' for hobby electronics books. This new edition of his basic book looks useful: https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Electronics-Forrest-Mims/dp/0945053282 https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Electronics-Forrest-M...
- weberer 3y agoHere's a nice list of resources: https://github.com/kitspace/awesome-electronics https://github.com/kitspace/awesome-electronics
- jboy55 3y agoI did a number of basic electronics tutorials and kits without much of it sticking. Mainly because there wasn't anything very interesting on the other side of the project. What got me through the basics into understanding was, http://www.ic0nstrux.com/design-your-own-video-game-console-ebook-hard-copy http://www.ic0nstrux.com/design-your-own-video-game-console-... in which you learn how to build simple video game consoles. Now, resistors, capacitors, transistors and everything else had functions that solved problems I was having.
- cjohnson318 3y agoThat book Code, by Charles Petzold, is good. It starts talking about the development of switches and relays, then logic gates, then how to add and subtract with logic gates, build memory from logic gates, then about the first integrated circuits from the mid-1970's, the 8080, and I don't remember what else. It's more computing focused that electronics focused, but it's a great entrypoint for learning about how logic gates translate into an algorithmic unit and memory.
- incanus77 3y agoSome years ago I really enjoyed Sparkfun’s Inventor’s Kit, which is Arduino-based and has a good starting supply of components and some fun projects.
- slingnow 3y agoI don't understand questions like this. You have the entire internet to search, powerful search tools, libraries, bookstores, etc. You're asking about the most basic building blocks of a subject (akin to asking "How can I learn about arithmetic?"), of which there must be an effectively infinite amount of material aimed at beginners. The best answer to your question is "Do anything. Anything at all".
- SkyPuncher 3y agoI’ve wondered this too. Far too many resources rehash the fundamentals that I learned in middle school/high school/college. I know things can get dangerous with high voltage, but it’d be fun have a “playbook” for low voltage applications.
- simonbarker87 3y agoThis book is great and got me through my electronics degree: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circuits-Devices-Systems-Electrical-Engineering/dp/0471839442 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circuits-Devices-Systems-Electrical...
- qwerty456127 3y agoIs there a good "game" to learn basic electronics sort of the same way but on a screen of a computer?
- shreddit 3y agoYes there is: https://sebastian.itch.io/digital-logic-sim https://sebastian.itch.io/digital-logic-sim
- qwerty456127 3y agoAwesome. Thank you very much. Is there any for basic analog electronics as well?
- perihelions 3y agohttps://www.falstad.com/circuit/ https://www.falstad.com/circuit/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17599728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17599728 (134 comments)
- SirMittens 3y agoThere is Turing Complete [0], although it's still somewhat in development, but it is very much playable. [0]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1444480/Turing_Complete/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1444480/Turing_Complete/
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- KeithBrink 3y agoAnother good one: https://nandgame.com/ https://nandgame.com/
- DylanSp 3y agoSilicon Zeroes might be up your alley, though IIRC it starts with logic gates and builds up to more complex logic/computation, it doesn't focus on the electrical engineering side of things. https://store.steampowered.com/app/684270/Silicon_Zeroes/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/684270/Silicon_Zeroes/
- DigitalNoumena 3y agoNice stuff. I love the idea of really learning electronics, but I find it very much beyond what I would need to build the things I want to build. PS. Guys HTTPS please!
- gokhan 3y agoWhy do you need https for this site?
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- DigitalNoumena 3y agohttps://www.troyhunt.com/heres-why-your-static-website-needs-https/ https://www.troyhunt.com/heres-why-your-static-website-needs... The whole video is great, but particularly this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BNIkw4Ao9w&t=1063s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BNIkw4Ao9w&t=1063s https://doesmysiteneedhttps.com/ https://doesmysiteneedhttps.com/ There are a lot of arguments about why, even non-secret data connections need encryption. The first and most obvious is that not doing so immediately puts a target on the encrypted data. By no means an expert but to me it seems like an oversight not to.
- chrisjj 3y agoAnd then there's the why not. E.g. https://www.zdnet.com/article/lets-encrypt-to-revoke-3-million-certificates-on-march-4-due-to-bug/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lets-encrypt-to-revoke-3-milli...
- DigitalNoumena 3y agoSo what you're saying is: HTTPS is secure -> a bug made 2.6% of all certificates less secure -> that's why we shouldn't use HTTPS? I'm quite confused how that holds logically. You can either argue HTTPS is fundamentally not secure or is irrelevant; or regret that there was a bug but support using HTTPS
- boredemployee 3y agoThis is a subject where I really wish I had a good experienced friend/mentor to take me by the hand and teach me it. I have an engineering degree (10 years ago) but I honestly don't have a clue of how this shit works, other than some basic physics intuition.
- musictubes 3y agoCould this be used with an AE modular synth rig? https://www.tangiblewaves.com/ https://www.tangiblewaves.com/
- an-unknown 3y agoThis could be used with modular synthesizer stuff, but you would have to be very careful about voltages, since the "logic module" here uses 3V and you'll most likely kill it with higher voltages or negative voltages on the inputs. If you plan to use such digital logic gates in a modular synthesizer, you most likely want to add some protection circuit on the inputs and run the whole thing at 5V instead of 3V.
- musictubes 3y agoGood catch. I keep forgetting about voltage stuff when mixing manufacturers.
- JR1427 3y agoI learned basic digital electronics by having a clear goal in mind - building a Z80-based computer I dubbed the ZX-JAKEY https://www.jake-reich.co.uk/projects/zx-jakey/zx-jakey https://www.jake-reich.co.uk/projects/zx-jakey/zx-jakey
- criddell 3y agoUsing an AVR128DA48 feels using a 747 to go get my mail from the mailbox. Why not use actual logic gate chips? I made a board like this a long time ago with 74xx-type chips. It was neat looking at a datasheet[1] and seeing exactly how the pins correspond to the gates. [1]:https://datasheetspdf.com/datasheet/7411.html https://datasheetspdf.com/datasheet/7411.html
- zokier 3y agoWhy use 6 chips when you can use one? It's not like those discrete chips would be cheaper in total
- criddell 3y agoFor me, the ideas become a little more concrete when I see a discrete package and can exactly map these inputs to that output. Otherwise, why use one chip when you can use none? This could all be little virtual switches in a web app.
- derefr 3y ago> Otherwise, why use one chip when you can use none? Because you're actually designing a hardware product to sell.
- varispeed 3y agoYou could also use 0 chips and create an app that does the same thing.
- chrisjj 3y agoI think you'll find an app needs more than zero chips to run...
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- gstrike 3y ago[dead]
- coreyp_1 3y agoMy problem is that I know enough to be dangerous, and not enough to do much practically. I keep fantasizing about going back and getting an EE degree or something, but after 15 years of taking university classes, I don't want to start that grind again. I've built small arduino projects, such as PIR sensor controlled under-cabinet lighting and a foot-controlled "prev/next" buttons for a slideshow display, but I'm now lost in working with audio. I'm wanting to build an audio mixer next, but audio is proving to be difficult for me to reason about. The rest of this post will talk about my idea, so skip it if you're not interested, or read it if you want to give me any ideas! :) Here's the full idea (for which I have not been able to find a commercial alternative): I want my home automation (RPi and Home Assistant) to integrate with my house's current speaker system and be able to mix audio on demand. For example, if an audible alert needs to be played, then the volume of whatever is currently being played will be reduced so that the alert can be heard, and then restored when the alert is finished. So if I'm watching a movie and my garage door opens, I want to know about it! Additionally, music should be able to follow me from room to room, and I should be able to send audio to one specific room if I desire. Finally, my digital organ has multiple audio channel outputs in order to replicate the pipe placement in different parts of an auditorium, and I would like for this system to support that as well (make the far-away pipes play from the next room, for example). In order to accomplish this, I want to build a zigbee-controlled audio mixer (with on-device fallback controls) for making use of my house's audio system (pre-wired when I bought the house, but the seller took the audio system with them and left the speakers!!) in conjunction with Home Assistant. Personally speaking, I don't like any solution that relies on a 3rd party to still be in business and be supporting my product a decade later, so self-hosted it is! I assume that I need a lot of ADCs for the inputs (14 channels in... yes, I have a reason for that many... and 18 channels out). I would want the mixing to be "any input channel can go to any output channel", so using a CPU for the mixing would undoubtedly be better than trying to do it all with discrete components. The thought of building an 18-channel amp is a bit daunting! 7 stereo inputs (3 of which are really the 5.1 audio input) and 9 zones (3 of which are really a 5.1 speaker setup that is currently not being used at all) is a tall order for any commercial solution. Generic mixers do exist, of course, but they usually don't support that many outputs (and they definitely don't integrate with HA!).
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- morninglight 3y agoHistorical Note: The Digital Equipment Corporation H-500 Computer Lab made it's appearance around 1969. Michael Gardi built a reproduction of the H-500 Computer Lab that is nothing less than spectacular. Not only did he pay meticulous attention to detail, but he has also produced clear and engaging documentation. It is not just a beautiful project; it is a work of art! Michael's goal clearly went beyond building a simple functional equivalent to the H-500. He was equally concerned with maintaining an "outwardly accurate appearance of the original". After 3 months of work he succeeded in every way. You can find details of his work here on Hackaday and in his Instructable. https://hackaday.io/project/170232-dec-h-500-computer-lab-reproduction https://hackaday.io/project/170232-dec-h-500-computer-lab-re... https://www.instructables.com/id/DEC-H-500-Computer-Lab-Reproduction/ https://www.instructables.com/id/DEC-H-500-Computer-Lab-Repr... John L Hughes designed the DEC Computer Lab and wrote the manual. His illuminating historical notes and a pdf of the DEC manual can be found here: https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_dechandboobWorkbook1969_6837997 https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_dechandboobWorkbook196... If you just want to play with digital logic in 2023, there are easier methods. You could just download one of the many free simulators for Windows. De Morgan's theorem is just a few clicks away. https://listoffreeware.com/free-logic-gate-simulator-software-windows/ https://listoffreeware.com/free-logic-gate-simulator-softwar... .
- chrisjj 3y agoI guess it depends on your definition of easier. Running Windows requires a hefty computer, last time I looked.
- rafabroseghini 3y agoThis reminds me of: https://store.steampowered.com/app/619150/while_True_learn/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/619150/while_True_learn/ Really fun game btw.
- leetrout 3y ago> total parts cost of under £20 or $25 Yet the link to have a board made is $99 for just the board. Would love to team up with folks interested in snagging one of these... maybe we could do a group buy somewhere?
- johnsondavies 3y agoAs mentioned in the article I used Elecrow, who made 5 boards for $24.14. I accept that the unit cost will be more if you're only making one.
- an-unknown 3y agoTake the gerber files from the Github repo, zip them, upload the zip file to jlcpcb.com, and you'll get 5 boards for around $20 including shipment. You'll still need the components like the AVR and LEDs and so on and you'll have to assemble them manually, but you'll have to do that with the offering from the link at oshpark too.
- PaulHoule 3y agoFun stuff. When I first got into Arduino I bought myself a set of 74xx gates and a breadboard and I wrote a program that would try a range of possible inputs and generate truth tables, I found that the breadboard + 74xx gates + jumper wires was a very physical way to experiment. The range of parts you can get is huge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400-series_integrated_circuits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400-series_integrated... even though my understanding now is that you are probably better off using the 54xx CMOS parts instead. You can do the same with switches and LEDs but boy do you run into trouble when you get into parts like flip-flops that have a memory because you will press a button once and thanks to keybounce your device will think you pressed the button 10 times. You get better results using the Arduino as a driver and those programs are really easy to write.
- nick__m 3y agoHardware denouncing is really easy to implement, you only need a 0.1uF capacitor, an 1k resistor and a 7414 (Schmitt trigger inverter). If your feeling particularly fancy and price is not a concern the LS18 is magical. That said, I agree that using an MCU is even easier and almost always cheaper if when you choose the appropriate chip.
- pkdpic 3y agoSomewhat related but does anyone have any suggestions for analog logic gate / transistor / electronics / computer education toys for small kids. Specific a 3 year old. Ive been keeping an eye open but haven't come across as much as I was expecting out there.
- chrisjj 3y agoSnap Electronics.
- B-JCl2awan 3y ago[flagged]
- loph 3y agoHere is how this was done... in 1965: https://ia600609.us.archive.org/9/items/TNM_Digital_Equipment_Corp_-_Digital_Logic_Labora_20170629_0375/TNM_Digital_Equipment_Corp_-_Digital_Logic_Labora_20170629_0375.pdf https://ia600609.us.archive.org/9/items/TNM_Digital_Equipmen...
- ibizaman 3y agoTo be honest, I really like the idea but I dislike that it is based on a microcontroller faking the components. It reminds me of a similar experience I had in a museum where the experiment had you cycling to give power to a bulb. The quicker you cycled, the more power you gave to the bulb and the brighter it was. But it was based on some microcontroller and the light bulb’s brightness was not proportional to how fast you cycled. It has like 3 preprogrammed brightness. It completely failed to give kids the intuition of the physics behind the phenomenon. Anyway, it’s probably an unfair comparison but I like having the real deal when learning or teaching.
- vineyardmike 3y agoIn school, I studied digital logic (like, chips and hardware) as much as I studied anything software, but professionally I’ve only written code. One of the biggest “disappointments” my professors shared - which I’ve never confirmed in industry- is that this is super common for digital logic, or else it’s just a “lookup table” with precomputed outputs for every input.
- snvzz 3y ago>else it’s just a “lookup table” with precomputed outputs for every input. This is how FPGAs work. Because they need to be programable, so the LUTs are in SRAMs inside the logic blocks. But actual custom ASICs don't use SRAM, as SRAM has higher area and power cost than logic.
- chrisjj 3y ago> I like having the real deal when learning A gate is no less real for living in an ATmega rather than a 74XX, note.
- taneq 3y agoWow, really? We have an exhibit like that in the science centre where I live, I’m pretty sure it just uses a car alternator and some headlights though. You can hear the soldering fast and the lights pulse with every power stroke of the pedals.
- apricot 3y agoIt's not clear to me what advantage this board has over a couple breadboards, jumper wires, switches, LEDs, resistors, and a handful of 7400-series chips. I've done most of the exercises mentioned on the page with my son using the material mentioned above (culminating in a simple 4-bit ALU made from discrete chips), and it was straightforward. As others have said, the fact that this is all being emulated by a microcontroller feels like cheating. If you're going to emulate, why not just use a circuit simulator like Logisim?
- amitprayal 3y agoCan this not be done using logisim?