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> I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where b

> I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. As a male, I can assure you that the types of comments that you think “pass without thought” isn't considered desirable by all of your fellow male colleagues either. Sure they won't necessarily complaint about it publicly, but they'll still see you in a negative way. Maybe you should accept that you're not a teenager anymore and that there are things that you shouldn't be saying out loud in a professional environment just because you think it's funny, it's not.

Gareth321 3y ago
> As a male, I can assure you that the types of comments that you think “pass without thought” isn't considered desirable by all of your fellow male colleagues either. Sure they won't necessarily complaint about it publicly, but they'll still see you in a negative way. You seem to have missed his point. It isn't whether his comments are considered desirable. He doesn't care, and neither do I. It is whether comments are raised to HR, management, or for personal lawsuits. This is potentially career ending. Part of living in a society with free speech is that we sometimes say things which hurt others people's feelings. We accept this because the alternative is self-imposed segregation. Which is, again, what they are pointing out. In the office today I am very careful never to be alone in a room with a woman. I don't "banter" with women because I am worried that one of my comments, however harmless in intent, will be perceived poorly. This means my dynamic with male colleagues is different because I trust they will not attempt to end my career over a misunderstanding.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > t is whether comments are raised to HR, management, or for personal lawsuits. This is potentially career ending. In some imaginary world maybe, but in practice we have many people with mountains of documented misbehavior still being in charge, so we definitely don't live in that world. First of all, very few women report even blatant misbehavior like groping, forced kisses or even rape, and then there are even fewer HR department that react properly when such reports are raised. The risk of a misunderstanding ending your career is basically null. The risk of ending a woman's career when she reports misconducts is much, much higher. > Part of living in a society with free speech is that we sometimes say things which hurt others people's feelings. Insulting your boss will almost always lead to you being fired, threatening a cop will get you legal troubles. Free speech is not absolute, and was never supposed to be. > In the office today I am very careful never to be alone in a room with a woman. I don't "banter" with women because I am worried that one of my comments, however harmless in intent, will be perceived poorly. Then you have a problem when communicating with women, and you should probably spend more time around them to learn. Yes at the beginning this will likely mean that you'd need to weight all your words to avoid saying something inappropriate, but at the end of the day, you'd have learned how to behave > This means my dynamic with male colleagues is different because I trust they will not attempt to end my career over a misunderstanding. That's a pretty bad assessment, as men are much more likely to throw you under the bus at the first occasion than women, because rivalries are much more intense between people of the same sex. Being afraid of your women coworker because they could report you is as irrational as being afraid of your neighbors because they could murder your family.
- synecdoche 3y ago
  The idea that the receiver is the sole interpreter and judge of intent is in my opinion unfair and unreasonable. The receiver can interpret utterance in a great many ways to which only imagination is the limit.
- Floegipoky 3y ago
  * "I am very careful never to be alone in a room with a woman" * "I don't 'banter' with women because I am worried that one of my comments, however harmless in intent, will be perceived poorly" Don't you think these behaviors are negatively impacting the careers of these women?
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    > He doesn't care, and neither do I. It is whether comments are raised to HR, management, or for personal lawsuits. This is potentially career ending Obviously his first priority is his own career. How can you expect it to be any other way? Get real.
    - Floegipoky 3y ago
      Engaging in gender discrimination is probably not the best way to avoid accusations of gender discrimination affecting one's career.
      - mcpackieh 3y ago
        Going for drinks after work with your male colleagues, but not the women, is most likely a net positive for your career. Very rarely is anybody fired for such an offense as not hanging out with women after work, but building a closer relationship with the other men you work with will pay dividends.
  - Gareth321 3y ago
    Maybe, but I don't see why that's my problem. Society has created a system by which my risk increases exponentially when I engage in friendly conversation with women. The rational response is to reduce exposure to that risk.
hilbert42 3y ago
"isn't considered desirable by all of your fellow male colleagues either." True, and I was one of them (and one of the few, but it never bothered me that much even if I didn't partake—as it was the cultural norm). It's amazing how people read meanings into comment that was never said let alone meant as subtext. That 'teenager' reference I consider offensive because many of the things you presume I must have been saying I likely never thought let alone ever did say out loud. You clearly aren't of the same generation as me, it's a shame we don't have hidden recordings of those times so you could fully appreciate how truly different they were to the present. Moreover, even then, the ethos was very different depending on what part of society one was in. Such comment was from my experience more common in the military but it was still pretty much accepted the norm in 'polite' all-male company.

Gareth321 3y ago

> As a male, I can assure you that the types of comments that you think “pass without thought” isn't considered desirable by all of your fellow male colleagues either. Sure they won't necessarily complaint about it publicly, but they'll still see you in a negative way. You seem to have missed his point. It isn't whether his comments are considered desirable. He doesn't care, and neither do I. It is whether comments are raised to HR, management, or for personal lawsuits. This is potentially career ending. Part of living in a society with free speech is that we sometimes say things which hurt others people's feelings. We accept this because the alternative is self-imposed segregation. Which is, again, what they are pointing out. In the office today I am very careful never to be alone in a room with a woman. I don't "banter" with women because I am worried that one of my comments, however harmless in intent, will be perceived poorly. This means my dynamic with male colleagues is different because I trust they will not attempt to end my career over a misunderstanding.

littlestymaar 3y ago
> t is whether comments are raised to HR, management, or for personal lawsuits. This is potentially career ending. In some imaginary world maybe, but in practice we have many people with mountains of documented misbehavior still being in charge, so we definitely don't live in that world. First of all, very few women report even blatant misbehavior like groping, forced kisses or even rape, and then there are even fewer HR department that react properly when such reports are raised. The risk of a misunderstanding ending your career is basically null. The risk of ending a woman's career when she reports misconducts is much, much higher. > Part of living in a society with free speech is that we sometimes say things which hurt others people's feelings. Insulting your boss will almost always lead to you being fired, threatening a cop will get you legal troubles. Free speech is not absolute, and was never supposed to be. > In the office today I am very careful never to be alone in a room with a woman. I don't "banter" with women because I am worried that one of my comments, however harmless in intent, will be perceived poorly. Then you have a problem when communicating with women, and you should probably spend more time around them to learn. Yes at the beginning this will likely mean that you'd need to weight all your words to avoid saying something inappropriate, but at the end of the day, you'd have learned how to behave > This means my dynamic with male colleagues is different because I trust they will not attempt to end my career over a misunderstanding. That's a pretty bad assessment, as men are much more likely to throw you under the bus at the first occasion than women, because rivalries are much more intense between people of the same sex. Being afraid of your women coworker because they could report you is as irrational as being afraid of your neighbors because they could murder your family.
synecdoche 3y ago
The idea that the receiver is the sole interpreter and judge of intent is in my opinion unfair and unreasonable. The receiver can interpret utterance in a great many ways to which only imagination is the limit.
Floegipoky 3y ago
* "I am very careful never to be alone in a room with a woman" * "I don't 'banter' with women because I am worried that one of my comments, however harmless in intent, will be perceived poorly" Don't you think these behaviors are negatively impacting the careers of these women?
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  > He doesn't care, and neither do I. It is whether comments are raised to HR, management, or for personal lawsuits. This is potentially career ending Obviously his first priority is his own career. How can you expect it to be any other way? Get real.
  - Floegipoky 3y ago
    Engaging in gender discrimination is probably not the best way to avoid accusations of gender discrimination affecting one's career.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      Going for drinks after work with your male colleagues, but not the women, is most likely a net positive for your career. Very rarely is anybody fired for such an offense as not hanging out with women after work, but building a closer relationship with the other men you work with will pay dividends.
- Gareth321 3y ago
  Maybe, but I don't see why that's my problem. Society has created a system by which my risk increases exponentially when I engage in friendly conversation with women. The rational response is to reduce exposure to that risk.

hilbert42 3y ago

"isn't considered desirable by all of your fellow male colleagues either." True, and I was one of them (and one of the few, but it never bothered me that much even if I didn't partake—as it was the cultural norm). It's amazing how people read meanings into comment that was never said let alone meant as subtext. That 'teenager' reference I consider offensive because many of the things you presume I must have been saying I likely never thought let alone ever did say out loud. You clearly aren't of the same generation as me, it's a shame we don't have hidden recordings of those times so you could fully appreciate how truly different they were to the present. Moreover, even then, the ethos was very different depending on what part of society one was in. Such comment was from my experience more common in the military but it was still pretty much accepted the norm in 'polite' all-male company.