4 ms·

In this case, Welsh is not the local language of Cardiff, nor is it for large areas of Wales (judging by % of Welsh speakers).

kome 3y ago
yes, in this case it's preserving a language that is almost dead, because killed by English internal colonialism/centralism so to say, and preserving a language is also a good endeavor.
- fdsafdsafds 3y ago
  In fact, I would go further, and say that Welsh in Cardiff is spoken almost exclusively by an upper middle-class "elite". You can say that publishing in Welsh helps preserve the language, but you can't argue that it's good for making science accessible or useful. Edit: >because killed by English internal colonialism/centralism so to say If we trace the origins of the languages currently spoken in the UK, it's much more correct to say that all of the original languages were pushed out by foreign influence from the continent.
  - kome 3y ago
    indeed i was answering TeeMassive’s comment, and not to the main topic. In this case, the goal of writing a PhD in a (all but) dead language, it's to keep it alive, not to be inclusive. i really don't know what's the social makeup of Welsh speakers (if any); but i understand it's a very niche thing, and not really useful for inclusivity of science; but again: it's not something i was arguing. i was talking about "real" languages with a base of active speakers. overall, for sure keeping a language alive is a good endeavor on its own, and that was the PhD's goal. >> If we trace the origins of the languages currently spoken in the UK, it's much more correct to say that all of the original languages were pushed out by foreign influence from the continent. ahaha, no. welsh it has been killed "recently" by internal policies, about education etc. not because the Normans influence or whatever.
    - fdsafdsafds 3y ago
      >i really don't know what's the social makeup of Welsh speakers There's a helpful map here: https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/welsh-language-statistics/ https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/welsh-language-statistics/ Zooming in on Cardiff shows exactly what I described - Welsh is more common (although still rare) in affluent suburbs, and the central part of town along with the poorer suburban housing developments have the lowest level of Welsh. Outside Cardiff, the effect is essentially reversed - rural areas with a (very) long farming heritage are among the few places where Welsh continues to be used as a daily language. I think this scenario is quite easily explained due to the amount of funding given to the Welsh language and the corresponding jobs created centreing on Cardiff, as well as the requirement for members of the Welsh Government to speak Welsh.
      - mpalfrey 3y ago
        Good map. As someone who grew up in Cardiff it doesn't surprise me to see this distribution. A lot of media roles are also billingual in Cardiff. I've got a GCSE in Welsh (having been one of the first years to have to do it mandatory). Used it once in anger up in North Wales. It was a difficult language to learn and I'd have preferred to continue with another European language ideally. I'll probably try to teach my daughter some Welsh though (she was born in England and will go to school in England).
    - fdsafdsafds 3y ago
      >ahaha, no. welsh it has been killed "recently" by internal policies, about education etc. not because the Normans influence or whatever. My point exactly. The onwards march of that awful mongrel language English, trampling all of our original Celtic languages, continues to this day!
- free_flintshire 3y ago
  Regional languages and dialects often decline with the emergence of modern states without a directed centralised effort to kill them.
  - fdsafdsafds 3y ago
    I have a friend, free_glamorgan. Sounds like you guys should meet up!
- chimprich 3y ago
  Calling a language that is spoken by hundreds of thousands of people "almost dead" is a strange claim. A quick search suggests Welsh is in the top 7% of languages spoken worldwide.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Maybe stagnated is a better word. I know a language where you can talk about everyday things, and so can probably a hundred million other people. But no one can talk about any topic more advanced than an elementary school subject without switching to a bigger language.
stevekemp 3y ago
It might not be spoken by "everybody", but it is an official language. It was only recently that there was headline news over parking fines being overturned because the demands were not available in Welsh. The fact that the driver could speak/read English was not an adequate defense: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/10/driver-wins-parking-fine-case-because-details-not-provided-in-welsh https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/10/driver-wins-... The Welsh nation has decided preserving and encouraging the use of their language is a good thing, and they should be saluted for it. Gaelic, and other local languages have suffered due to disuse and neglect, and Welsh is a post-child for the effectiveness of teaching it in schools and "forcing" it to be supported. Usefully.
- fdsafdsafds 3y ago
  >Welsh is a post-child for the effectiveness of teaching it in schools and "forcing" it to be supported. Usefully. You can say it's a good thing that an ancient language and corresponding culture is being saved (although I would also argue that draining Welsh speakers from their familial localities by proving strong financial incentives to move to Cardiff is ultimately doing huge damage to the cultural heartlands of Wales), but I can't agree with this statement. Census data shows that Welsh language usage has decreased slightly over the past 10 years, and Welsh-language schools (funded at extra cost to taxpayers as a parallel school system) do not perform as well academically as mainstream schools. Sure, everyone here has done a Welsh GCSE, but it's largely considered a joke and kids boast about how little they learned. https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/news/welsh-medium-school-pupils-underperform-in-tests-despite-more-advantaged-backgrounds https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/news/welsh-medium-school-pupils-...
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  Nit: "poster child" for the effectiveness [etc], as in such a perfect example that you would put it on a poster to represent them. In looking this up to be sure of my comment, I learned that it originally comes from children on posters requesting support against a specific disease: https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/poster-child https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/poster-child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poster_child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poster_child

kome 3y ago

yes, in this case it's preserving a language that is almost dead, because killed by English internal colonialism/centralism so to say, and preserving a language is also a good endeavor.

fdsafdsafds 3y ago
In fact, I would go further, and say that Welsh in Cardiff is spoken almost exclusively by an upper middle-class "elite". You can say that publishing in Welsh helps preserve the language, but you can't argue that it's good for making science accessible or useful. Edit: >because killed by English internal colonialism/centralism so to say If we trace the origins of the languages currently spoken in the UK, it's much more correct to say that all of the original languages were pushed out by foreign influence from the continent.
- kome 3y ago
  indeed i was answering TeeMassive’s comment, and not to the main topic. In this case, the goal of writing a PhD in a (all but) dead language, it's to keep it alive, not to be inclusive. i really don't know what's the social makeup of Welsh speakers (if any); but i understand it's a very niche thing, and not really useful for inclusivity of science; but again: it's not something i was arguing. i was talking about "real" languages with a base of active speakers. overall, for sure keeping a language alive is a good endeavor on its own, and that was the PhD's goal. >> If we trace the origins of the languages currently spoken in the UK, it's much more correct to say that all of the original languages were pushed out by foreign influence from the continent. ahaha, no. welsh it has been killed "recently" by internal policies, about education etc. not because the Normans influence or whatever.
  - fdsafdsafds 3y ago
    >i really don't know what's the social makeup of Welsh speakers There's a helpful map here: https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/welsh-language-statistics/ https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/welsh-language-statistics/ Zooming in on Cardiff shows exactly what I described - Welsh is more common (although still rare) in affluent suburbs, and the central part of town along with the poorer suburban housing developments have the lowest level of Welsh. Outside Cardiff, the effect is essentially reversed - rural areas with a (very) long farming heritage are among the few places where Welsh continues to be used as a daily language. I think this scenario is quite easily explained due to the amount of funding given to the Welsh language and the corresponding jobs created centreing on Cardiff, as well as the requirement for members of the Welsh Government to speak Welsh.
    - mpalfrey 3y ago
      Good map. As someone who grew up in Cardiff it doesn't surprise me to see this distribution. A lot of media roles are also billingual in Cardiff. I've got a GCSE in Welsh (having been one of the first years to have to do it mandatory). Used it once in anger up in North Wales. It was a difficult language to learn and I'd have preferred to continue with another European language ideally. I'll probably try to teach my daughter some Welsh though (she was born in England and will go to school in England).
  - fdsafdsafds 3y ago
    >ahaha, no. welsh it has been killed "recently" by internal policies, about education etc. not because the Normans influence or whatever. My point exactly. The onwards march of that awful mongrel language English, trampling all of our original Celtic languages, continues to this day!
free_flintshire 3y ago
Regional languages and dialects often decline with the emergence of modern states without a directed centralised effort to kill them.
- fdsafdsafds 3y ago
  I have a friend, free_glamorgan. Sounds like you guys should meet up!
chimprich 3y ago
Calling a language that is spoken by hundreds of thousands of people "almost dead" is a strange claim. A quick search suggests Welsh is in the top 7% of languages spoken worldwide.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Maybe stagnated is a better word. I know a language where you can talk about everyday things, and so can probably a hundred million other people. But no one can talk about any topic more advanced than an elementary school subject without switching to a bigger language.

stevekemp 3y ago

It might not be spoken by "everybody", but it is an official language. It was only recently that there was headline news over parking fines being overturned because the demands were not available in Welsh. The fact that the driver could speak/read English was not an adequate defense: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/10/driver-wins-parking-fine-case-because-details-not-provided-in-welsh https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/10/driver-wins-... The Welsh nation has decided preserving and encouraging the use of their language is a good thing, and they should be saluted for it. Gaelic, and other local languages have suffered due to disuse and neglect, and Welsh is a post-child for the effectiveness of teaching it in schools and "forcing" it to be supported. Usefully.

fdsafdsafds 3y ago
>Welsh is a post-child for the effectiveness of teaching it in schools and "forcing" it to be supported. Usefully. You can say it's a good thing that an ancient language and corresponding culture is being saved (although I would also argue that draining Welsh speakers from their familial localities by proving strong financial incentives to move to Cardiff is ultimately doing huge damage to the cultural heartlands of Wales), but I can't agree with this statement. Census data shows that Welsh language usage has decreased slightly over the past 10 years, and Welsh-language schools (funded at extra cost to taxpayers as a parallel school system) do not perform as well academically as mainstream schools. Sure, everyone here has done a Welsh GCSE, but it's largely considered a joke and kids boast about how little they learned. https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/news/welsh-medium-school-pupils-underperform-in-tests-despite-more-advantaged-backgrounds https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/news/welsh-medium-school-pupils-...
lazyasciiart 3y ago
Nit: "poster child" for the effectiveness [etc], as in such a perfect example that you would put it on a poster to represent them. In looking this up to be sure of my comment, I learned that it originally comes from children on posters requesting support against a specific disease: https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/poster-child https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/poster-child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poster_child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poster_child