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We acknowledge that the land on which we pollinate is the traditional territory of the plasterer bee, the southeastern blueberry bee, and the ogallalla fruit ba

We acknowledge that the land on which we pollinate is the traditional territory of the plasterer bee, the southeastern blueberry bee, and the ogallalla fruit bat. As we gather the nectar that sustains us all, we honor them and the wasp and placental mammal ancestors who have been stewards of this land for countless generations predating our arrival.

ggm 3y ago
But who will speak for the Varroa mite?
tptacek 3y ago
I am OK with beekeeping as long as beekeepers recite land acknowledgements to solitary bee species! I think you know my position on this already though: fuck bees. Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! (everybody else: if you live in a locale where honey bees are native, I'm not talking about your bees.)
- cryptonector 3y ago
  > Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! We're all invasive. And we've brought a ton of non-native species to all parts of the world over the millennia we've been doing this. I'm not sure what you propose we do now about that. You can't unbreak that egg. I could stop beekeeping, and it wouldn't make a difference. We could stop all commercial beekeeping and that would likely be an agricultural disaster for many crops. Given all of that, why should one not look into how best to "keep a bunch of non-native bugs"?
  - Sprocklem 3y ago
    There is a balancing act here: while beekeeping does in many ways help support the population of non-native species, you are right in noting that a lot of eurasian plant species that we rely on need domestic bees – and honey bees, in particular – to produce our food. At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species – especially in the case of those eurasian plant species. It seems to me that honey bees must be kept in agricultural settings – and in that case, I hope that they are kept responsibly – but the urban beekeepers discussed upthread should, perhaps, put a larger part of their effort towards keeping native species. > We're all invasive. Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. We may have been when we first arrived – and many native species went extinct as a result – but humans have been a part of the local ecosystems for tens of thousands of years and – where I'm from in canada – have been here since the ice sheets receded and the local ecosystem began to evolve. We are far past the point of being an invasive species and have (had?) long been integrated into the ecosystems in question.
    - cryptonector 3y ago
      > At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species For sure. > but the urban beekeepers Are they really a problem? How many hives are they keeping? I've no idea. I know it's hard to come up with numbers in that regard because most such hives are -presumably- completely not registered. Urban and suburban beekeeping can only be considered a hobby. And a risky one at that. Bees don't like lawn mowers running near them, and neighbors don't like getting stung. I think urban beekeeping must be a non-problem. > Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. [...] Fair.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        It's not really my point that beekeepers should feel bad about what they're doing, only that they should stop moralizing so much about it. Unless they're in the UK. I guess honey bees are allowed there.
        cryptonector 3y ago
        I can get behind that. I don't like moralizing either. There's still lots of practical reasons to want and recommend treatment-free beekeeping practices: - it's easier on the beekeeper - less labor - not working with dangerous chemicals - it's cheaper (no need to buy said dangerous chemicals) - less time doing things to the bees that the bees don't appreciate == fewer stings - it's easier on the bees (no pesticides) - it breeds stronger bees and weaker mites It might be easier on the environment too (not so strong mites might not affect native pollinators much), or maybe not (stronger honeybees might really out-compete native pollinators). Plus if the loss rates w/ and w/o treatment are similar, why bother treating? Similarly there are moral and practical reasons to switch from Langstroth to top-bar hives: - moral: kill fewer bees - practical: get stung less, no need for gloves nor full suits, only veils If a beekeeper lacks empathy for the bees, they might still have empathy for themselves!
- poulsbohemian 3y ago
  tptacek - normally I find your commentary insightful, but I'm a bit taken aback by your stance on bees, plus feel its a bit out of step with many beekeepers / researchers. There are commercial and research beekeepers who are also taking steps to protect native bees and pollinator habitats and spread awareness of the same. In my "backyard" there are at least three types of native bees in addition to my hives. Would be very interested to understand the root of your fervor against apis mellifera.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    I don't really have a problem with backyard beekeepers; it's just in the US, they've become emblematic of a kind of evangelical and ill-informed faux-environmentalism and I'm fond of pointing out that, here at least, they're essentially the battery-farmed hogs of the insect world. Also I'm scared of them. I like a mason bee. Docile and fuzzy, those guys.
    - poulsbohemian 3y ago
      I wish we were closer geographically - would love to invite you out to connect with our local beekeepers and share a frosty beverage as it sounds like it would be a positive exchange. I can't speak for those in urban areas - I can imagine the type you are describing though and I can see how that would be grating. Here in the middle of nowhere, I think many are aware that we are fundamentally keeping livestock that are not native to this continent. The commercial beekeepers in particular see no romance in what they do - it's about 18 wheelers of boxes headed to CA for almond pollination.
      - cryptonector 3y ago
        And commercial honey producers also see no romance in what they do. We're switching to top-bar hives, and after that it will be comb honey only, because I don't want to bother extracting honey if it's not in Langstroth frames, and I don't want any more Langstroth. I'm thinking I'll still have some Langstroth supers because, well, I don't kill bees when inspecting supers or harvesting, it's when I get into the deeps that killing bees becomes almost impossible to avoid, and if that works out I think that will yield better-looking comb honey. I'm done with plastic foundation, too, and therefore also with centrifugal extractors.

ggm 3y ago

But who will speak for the Varroa mite?

tptacek 3y ago

I am OK with beekeeping as long as beekeepers recite land acknowledgements to solitary bee species! I think you know my position on this already though: fuck bees. Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! (everybody else: if you live in a locale where honey bees are native, I'm not talking about your bees.)

cryptonector 3y ago
> Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! We're all invasive. And we've brought a ton of non-native species to all parts of the world over the millennia we've been doing this. I'm not sure what you propose we do now about that. You can't unbreak that egg. I could stop beekeeping, and it wouldn't make a difference. We could stop all commercial beekeeping and that would likely be an agricultural disaster for many crops. Given all of that, why should one not look into how best to "keep a bunch of non-native bugs"?
- Sprocklem 3y ago
  There is a balancing act here: while beekeeping does in many ways help support the population of non-native species, you are right in noting that a lot of eurasian plant species that we rely on need domestic bees – and honey bees, in particular – to produce our food. At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species – especially in the case of those eurasian plant species. It seems to me that honey bees must be kept in agricultural settings – and in that case, I hope that they are kept responsibly – but the urban beekeepers discussed upthread should, perhaps, put a larger part of their effort towards keeping native species. > We're all invasive. Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. We may have been when we first arrived – and many native species went extinct as a result – but humans have been a part of the local ecosystems for tens of thousands of years and – where I'm from in canada – have been here since the ice sheets receded and the local ecosystem began to evolve. We are far past the point of being an invasive species and have (had?) long been integrated into the ecosystems in question.
  - cryptonector 3y ago
    > At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species For sure. > but the urban beekeepers Are they really a problem? How many hives are they keeping? I've no idea. I know it's hard to come up with numbers in that regard because most such hives are -presumably- completely not registered. Urban and suburban beekeeping can only be considered a hobby. And a risky one at that. Bees don't like lawn mowers running near them, and neighbors don't like getting stung. I think urban beekeeping must be a non-problem. > Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. [...] Fair.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      It's not really my point that beekeepers should feel bad about what they're doing, only that they should stop moralizing so much about it. Unless they're in the UK. I guess honey bees are allowed there.
      - cryptonector 3y ago
        I can get behind that. I don't like moralizing either. There's still lots of practical reasons to want and recommend treatment-free beekeeping practices: - it's easier on the beekeeper - less labor - not working with dangerous chemicals - it's cheaper (no need to buy said dangerous chemicals) - less time doing things to the bees that the bees don't appreciate == fewer stings - it's easier on the bees (no pesticides) - it breeds stronger bees and weaker mites It might be easier on the environment too (not so strong mites might not affect native pollinators much), or maybe not (stronger honeybees might really out-compete native pollinators). Plus if the loss rates w/ and w/o treatment are similar, why bother treating? Similarly there are moral and practical reasons to switch from Langstroth to top-bar hives: - moral: kill fewer bees - practical: get stung less, no need for gloves nor full suits, only veils If a beekeeper lacks empathy for the bees, they might still have empathy for themselves!
poulsbohemian 3y ago
tptacek - normally I find your commentary insightful, but I'm a bit taken aback by your stance on bees, plus feel its a bit out of step with many beekeepers / researchers. There are commercial and research beekeepers who are also taking steps to protect native bees and pollinator habitats and spread awareness of the same. In my "backyard" there are at least three types of native bees in addition to my hives. Would be very interested to understand the root of your fervor against apis mellifera.
- tptacek 3y ago
  I don't really have a problem with backyard beekeepers; it's just in the US, they've become emblematic of a kind of evangelical and ill-informed faux-environmentalism and I'm fond of pointing out that, here at least, they're essentially the battery-farmed hogs of the insect world. Also I'm scared of them. I like a mason bee. Docile and fuzzy, those guys.
  - poulsbohemian 3y ago
    I wish we were closer geographically - would love to invite you out to connect with our local beekeepers and share a frosty beverage as it sounds like it would be a positive exchange. I can't speak for those in urban areas - I can imagine the type you are describing though and I can see how that would be grating. Here in the middle of nowhere, I think many are aware that we are fundamentally keeping livestock that are not native to this continent. The commercial beekeepers in particular see no romance in what they do - it's about 18 wheelers of boxes headed to CA for almond pollination.
    - cryptonector 3y ago
      And commercial honey producers also see no romance in what they do. We're switching to top-bar hives, and after that it will be comb honey only, because I don't want to bother extracting honey if it's not in Langstroth frames, and I don't want any more Langstroth. I'm thinking I'll still have some Langstroth supers because, well, I don't kill bees when inspecting supers or harvesting, it's when I get into the deeps that killing bees becomes almost impossible to avoid, and if that works out I think that will yield better-looking comb honey. I'm done with plastic foundation, too, and therefore also with centrifugal extractors.