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> not something expressly designed to violate KYC/AML laws. Tornado Cash was not designed to violate laws as per intent of the authors. Maybe it is your judgem

> not something expressly designed to violate KYC/AML laws. Tornado Cash was not designed to violate laws as per intent of the authors. Maybe it is your judgement of the design itself. Whether or not it in fact does is something we may possibly find out (if the US plea-deal system doesn't prevent it). Even then, a guilty verdict might hinge on technicalities around the TORN token.

acdha 3y ago
They’re not being charged for the design: > As alleged, when it became clear that a sanctioned North Korean cybercrime organization was using the platform to launder hundreds of millions of dollars derived from cyber heists, Storm and Semenov turned a blind eye to the illicit activity and made public representations that they were compliant with sanctions laws. Now, we don’t know how much evidence they have about that knowledge but federal prosecutors usually don’t bring cases like this speculatively. I would be surprised if they didn’t have specific example of them clearly being aware of that information and choosing not to act - for a relatively high-profile case they’re not going to want the embarrassment of losing. EDIT: Tracking down the actual PDF has things like this: > 59. ROMAN STORM, ROMAN SEMENOV, the defendants, and CC-1 were fully aware within days of the Ronin Network hack that the proceeds of the hack were in fact being deposited into the Tornado Cash service. For instance, on or about April 4, 2022, a reporter sent an email to an email address used by all three Tornado Cash founders asking for comment on the Ronin Network hack, in which the reporter included a link to a blockchain analytics website and stated that "it appears that these hackers are trying to use Tornado.cash to launder stolen funds." > 67. ROMAN STORM and ROMAN SEMENOV, the defendants, and CC-1 well knew that the Tornado Cash service was continuing to launder proceeds of the Ronin Network hack held in the Lazarus Group's 0x098B716 Address. On or about April 30, 2022, SEMENOV sent a message to STORM and CC-1 through the Encrypted App with a link to a blockchain analysis showing that 15% of all of the deposits into the Tornado Cash service over the preceding three months had come from the Ronin Network hack. The analysis also showed that more than 90% of all the deposits into the Tornado Cash service for which a source could be identified during that same time period were attributable to criminal exploits. https://www.justice.gov/media/1311391/dl https://www.justice.gov/media/1311391/dl 90% is a pretty large number, and that pattern of ongoing knowledge is significant, too. As an analogy, if I run a bike shop and some dude brings in a stolen bike, I’m not getting arrested but that’s not true if 90% of the bikes in my shop are from the same dodgy guys the cops are looking for.
- miracle2k 3y ago
  > I would be surprised if they didn’t have specific example of them clearly being aware of that information and choosing not to act. Yeah, I'm sure the FBI needed to bring out their top detectives to find "evidence" that the Tornado Cash devs where not aware that criminals used their service. I guess they never googled themselves or talked to anyone ever. This case isn't a dispute about the facts. It's a fight about if existing AML legislation can be stretched to include new types of financial actors on blockchains. Most people here simply have no idea how Tornado Cash operated, don't care to ask themselves what the underlying principles should be, what kinds of obligations should be in miners, and would probably support the arrest of Vitalik Buterin on money laundering charges.
- alphanullmeric 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - acdha 3y ago
    I would strongly suggest toning down the outrage until you learn about the laws. In particular, how money changing hands is more restricted than speech. Civil disobedience is always a choice, of course, but it’s not like there was any question that KYC applied to financial vehicles - they were just hoping to reach “too big to fail” status before attracting the attention of prosecutors.
    - alphanullmeric 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - miracle2k 3y ago
      > they were just hoping to reach “too big to fail” status before attracting the attention of prosecutors. Are saying that although this is evil, evil money laundering, if they just get a chance to do more of it, US prosecutors will leave them alone? They failed, so now they have acdha explain to them how they should have known better? This is nonsense - they didn't hope to get "too big to fail". If you are looking for a reason why Roman Storm felt confident to operate out of and stay in the US it is because: - there were many questions about whether KYC applied. - these questions remain today. If you personally want the law to criminalize what the TC founders did, feel free to argue as such, but be prepared to explain what exactly that is, because there are a whole bunch of other people wondering if you'd want to seem them jailed for their particular work on financial vehicles.

acdha 3y ago

They’re not being charged for the design: > As alleged, when it became clear that a sanctioned North Korean cybercrime organization was using the platform to launder hundreds of millions of dollars derived from cyber heists, Storm and Semenov turned a blind eye to the illicit activity and made public representations that they were compliant with sanctions laws. Now, we don’t know how much evidence they have about that knowledge but federal prosecutors usually don’t bring cases like this speculatively. I would be surprised if they didn’t have specific example of them clearly being aware of that information and choosing not to act - for a relatively high-profile case they’re not going to want the embarrassment of losing. EDIT: Tracking down the actual PDF has things like this: > 59. ROMAN STORM, ROMAN SEMENOV, the defendants, and CC-1 were fully aware within days of the Ronin Network hack that the proceeds of the hack were in fact being deposited into the Tornado Cash service. For instance, on or about April 4, 2022, a reporter sent an email to an email address used by all three Tornado Cash founders asking for comment on the Ronin Network hack, in which the reporter included a link to a blockchain analytics website and stated that "it appears that these hackers are trying to use Tornado.cash to launder stolen funds." > 67. ROMAN STORM and ROMAN SEMENOV, the defendants, and CC-1 well knew that the Tornado Cash service was continuing to launder proceeds of the Ronin Network hack held in the Lazarus Group's 0x098B716 Address. On or about April 30, 2022, SEMENOV sent a message to STORM and CC-1 through the Encrypted App with a link to a blockchain analysis showing that 15% of all of the deposits into the Tornado Cash service over the preceding three months had come from the Ronin Network hack. The analysis also showed that more than 90% of all the deposits into the Tornado Cash service for which a source could be identified during that same time period were attributable to criminal exploits. https://www.justice.gov/media/1311391/dl https://www.justice.gov/media/1311391/dl 90% is a pretty large number, and that pattern of ongoing knowledge is significant, too. As an analogy, if I run a bike shop and some dude brings in a stolen bike, I’m not getting arrested but that’s not true if 90% of the bikes in my shop are from the same dodgy guys the cops are looking for.

miracle2k 3y ago
> I would be surprised if they didn’t have specific example of them clearly being aware of that information and choosing not to act. Yeah, I'm sure the FBI needed to bring out their top detectives to find "evidence" that the Tornado Cash devs where not aware that criminals used their service. I guess they never googled themselves or talked to anyone ever. This case isn't a dispute about the facts. It's a fight about if existing AML legislation can be stretched to include new types of financial actors on blockchains. Most people here simply have no idea how Tornado Cash operated, don't care to ask themselves what the underlying principles should be, what kinds of obligations should be in miners, and would probably support the arrest of Vitalik Buterin on money laundering charges.
alphanullmeric 3y ago
[flagged]
- acdha 3y ago
  I would strongly suggest toning down the outrage until you learn about the laws. In particular, how money changing hands is more restricted than speech. Civil disobedience is always a choice, of course, but it’s not like there was any question that KYC applied to financial vehicles - they were just hoping to reach “too big to fail” status before attracting the attention of prosecutors.
  - alphanullmeric 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - miracle2k 3y ago
    > they were just hoping to reach “too big to fail” status before attracting the attention of prosecutors. Are saying that although this is evil, evil money laundering, if they just get a chance to do more of it, US prosecutors will leave them alone? They failed, so now they have acdha explain to them how they should have known better? This is nonsense - they didn't hope to get "too big to fail". If you are looking for a reason why Roman Storm felt confident to operate out of and stay in the US it is because: - there were many questions about whether KYC applied. - these questions remain today. If you personally want the law to criminalize what the TC founders did, feel free to argue as such, but be prepared to explain what exactly that is, because there are a whole bunch of other people wondering if you'd want to seem them jailed for their particular work on financial vehicles.