4 ms·

Honeybees aren't native to the US, but there are lots of native bee species. I see no reason to assume that every beekeeper is only in it for the honey.

by kibwen 3y ago

tptacek 3y ago
They're all keeping honeybees, which are competing with the native pollinators. (You can of course buy mason bee nests or whatever, but nobody calls you a beekeeper for doing that).
- idlewords 3y ago
  We acknowledge that the land on which we pollinate is the traditional territory of the plasterer bee, the southeastern blueberry bee, and the ogallalla fruit bat. As we gather the nectar that sustains us all, we honor them and the wasp and placental mammal ancestors who have been stewards of this land for countless generations predating our arrival.
  - ggm 3y ago
    But who will speak for the Varroa mite?
  - tptacek 3y ago
    I am OK with beekeeping as long as beekeepers recite land acknowledgements to solitary bee species! I think you know my position on this already though: fuck bees. Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! (everybody else: if you live in a locale where honey bees are native, I'm not talking about your bees.)
    - cryptonector 3y ago
      > Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! We're all invasive. And we've brought a ton of non-native species to all parts of the world over the millennia we've been doing this. I'm not sure what you propose we do now about that. You can't unbreak that egg. I could stop beekeeping, and it wouldn't make a difference. We could stop all commercial beekeeping and that would likely be an agricultural disaster for many crops. Given all of that, why should one not look into how best to "keep a bunch of non-native bugs"?
      - Sprocklem 3y ago
        There is a balancing act here: while beekeeping does in many ways help support the population of non-native species, you are right in noting that a lot of eurasian plant species that we rely on need domestic bees – and honey bees, in particular – to produce our food. At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species – especially in the case of those eurasian plant species. It seems to me that honey bees must be kept in agricultural settings – and in that case, I hope that they are kept responsibly – but the urban beekeepers discussed upthread should, perhaps, put a larger part of their effort towards keeping native species. > We're all invasive. Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. We may have been when we first arrived – and many native species went extinct as a result – but humans have been a part of the local ecosystems for tens of thousands of years and – where I'm from in canada – have been here since the ice sheets receded and the local ecosystem began to evolve. We are far past the point of being an invasive species and have (had?) long been integrated into the ecosystems in question.
        cryptonector 3y ago
        > At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species For sure. > but the urban beekeepers Are they really a problem? How many hives are they keeping? I've no idea. I know it's hard to come up with numbers in that regard because most such hives are -presumably- completely not registered. Urban and suburban beekeeping can only be considered a hobby. And a risky one at that. Bees don't like lawn mowers running near them, and neighbors don't like getting stung. I think urban beekeeping must be a non-problem. > Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. [...] Fair.
        tptacek 3y ago
        It's not really my point that beekeepers should feel bad about what they're doing, only that they should stop moralizing so much about it. Unless they're in the UK. I guess honey bees are allowed there.
    - poulsbohemian 3y ago
      tptacek - normally I find your commentary insightful, but I'm a bit taken aback by your stance on bees, plus feel its a bit out of step with many beekeepers / researchers. There are commercial and research beekeepers who are also taking steps to protect native bees and pollinator habitats and spread awareness of the same. In my "backyard" there are at least three types of native bees in addition to my hives. Would be very interested to understand the root of your fervor against apis mellifera.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        I don't really have a problem with backyard beekeepers; it's just in the US, they've become emblematic of a kind of evangelical and ill-informed faux-environmentalism and I'm fond of pointing out that, here at least, they're essentially the battery-farmed hogs of the insect world. Also I'm scared of them. I like a mason bee. Docile and fuzzy, those guys.
        poulsbohemian 3y ago
        I wish we were closer geographically - would love to invite you out to connect with our local beekeepers and share a frosty beverage as it sounds like it would be a positive exchange. I can't speak for those in urban areas - I can imagine the type you are describing though and I can see how that would be grating. Here in the middle of nowhere, I think many are aware that we are fundamentally keeping livestock that are not native to this continent. The commercial beekeepers in particular see no romance in what they do - it's about 18 wheelers of boxes headed to CA for almond pollination.
        cryptonector 3y ago
        And commercial honey producers also see no romance in what they do. We're switching to top-bar hives, and after that it will be comb honey only, because I don't want to bother extracting honey if it's not in Langstroth frames, and I don't want any more Langstroth. I'm thinking I'll still have some Langstroth supers because, well, I don't kill bees when inspecting supers or harvesting, it's when I get into the deeps that killing bees becomes almost impossible to avoid, and if that works out I think that will yield better-looking comb honey. I'm done with plastic foundation, too, and therefore also with centrifugal extractors.
- cryptonector 3y ago
  I am quite interested in building native bee "hotels".
  - ianburrell 3y ago
    Mason bees lay nest in holes. Hotels are bundle of tubes mounted on wall. It is supposed to be important get goods ones, which seem to have wood trays instead of tubes, but I don't have a source on those. Some people bring the full hotels inside for winter but I get mild winters and figure bees know what they are doing. Then the bees emerge in the spring and lay eggs for winter. The tubes need to be cleaned or replaced, but not sure when. Thanks for reminding me, I've been meaning to put up a mason bee hotel. I hope not too late. Most other native bees are ground nesting. Leaving bare earth or brush piles can help.
    - ianburrell 3y ago
      Unfortunately, I think we missed the window for this year. It sounds like mason bees seal up cocoons in early summer. I found page on making wild bee sanctuary: https://davidsuzuki.org/living-green/how-to-grow-a-wild-bee-sanctuary/ https://davidsuzuki.org/living-green/how-to-grow-a-wild-bee-.... And one on mason bees: https://davidsuzuki.org/living-green/how-to-support-mason-bees-year-round/ https://davidsuzuki.org/living-green/how-to-support-mason-be....
- cryptonector 3y ago
  The genie is out of the bottle though. If all beekeeping stopped, honeybees would still be everywhere -- perhaps in smaller numbers, perhaps not. Are there any proposals to ban beekeeping? It's possible that in Texas the property tax break incentive for beekeeping will be removed, because it's fairly new and because it's getting abused. But I seriously doubt that a ban on beekeeping will pass anywhere. There are non-native plants (like almond trees) in the North Americas that are mainly pollinated by non-native bees. We couldn't realistically outlaw even just commercial beekeeping, though politically it may be possible to outlaw amateur beekeeping (would that make a dent?).
cryptonector 3y ago
> I see no reason to assume that every beekeeper is only in it for the honey. Excluding commercial beekeeping operations, the profit motives that small operations and amateur beekeepers keep bees include: - for the honey (to sell it at a profit) - for the hives (to sell them at a profit) - for side-lines like queen rearing (to sell them at a profit) - for property tax breaks There are also reasons that have no profit motives. Some beekeepers do it to "save the bees", but the bees don't need saving. Others do it because it's fun (yes, it is fun!). Some might even do it because the hum of the bees is so relaxing, and some even believe that bee venom stings are therapeutic (I've heard this from some friends).

Honeybees aren't native to the US, but there are lots of native bee species. I see no reason to assume that every beekeeper is only in it for the honey.

by kibwen 3y ago

Honeybees aren't native to the US, but there are lots of native bee species. I see no reason to assume that every beekeeper is only in it for the honey.

tptacek 3y ago

They're all keeping honeybees, which are competing with the native pollinators. (You can of course buy mason bee nests or whatever, but nobody calls you a beekeeper for doing that).

idlewords 3y ago
We acknowledge that the land on which we pollinate is the traditional territory of the plasterer bee, the southeastern blueberry bee, and the ogallalla fruit bat. As we gather the nectar that sustains us all, we honor them and the wasp and placental mammal ancestors who have been stewards of this land for countless generations predating our arrival.
- ggm 3y ago
  But who will speak for the Varroa mite?
- tptacek 3y ago
  I am OK with beekeeping as long as beekeepers recite land acknowledgements to solitary bee species! I think you know my position on this already though: fuck bees. Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! (everybody else: if you live in a locale where honey bees are native, I'm not talking about your bees.)
  - cryptonector 3y ago
    > Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! We're all invasive. And we've brought a ton of non-native species to all parts of the world over the millennia we've been doing this. I'm not sure what you propose we do now about that. You can't unbreak that egg. I could stop beekeeping, and it wouldn't make a difference. We could stop all commercial beekeeping and that would likely be an agricultural disaster for many crops. Given all of that, why should one not look into how best to "keep a bunch of non-native bugs"?
    - Sprocklem 3y ago
      There is a balancing act here: while beekeeping does in many ways help support the population of non-native species, you are right in noting that a lot of eurasian plant species that we rely on need domestic bees – and honey bees, in particular – to produce our food. At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species – especially in the case of those eurasian plant species. It seems to me that honey bees must be kept in agricultural settings – and in that case, I hope that they are kept responsibly – but the urban beekeepers discussed upthread should, perhaps, put a larger part of their effort towards keeping native species. > We're all invasive. Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. We may have been when we first arrived – and many native species went extinct as a result – but humans have been a part of the local ecosystems for tens of thousands of years and – where I'm from in canada – have been here since the ice sheets receded and the local ecosystem began to evolve. We are far past the point of being an invasive species and have (had?) long been integrated into the ecosystems in question.
      - cryptonector 3y ago
        > At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species For sure. > but the urban beekeepers Are they really a problem? How many hives are they keeping? I've no idea. I know it's hard to come up with numbers in that regard because most such hives are -presumably- completely not registered. Urban and suburban beekeeping can only be considered a hobby. And a risky one at that. Bees don't like lawn mowers running near them, and neighbors don't like getting stung. I think urban beekeeping must be a non-problem. > Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. [...] Fair.
        tptacek 3y ago
        It's not really my point that beekeepers should feel bad about what they're doing, only that they should stop moralizing so much about it. Unless they're in the UK. I guess honey bees are allowed there.
  - poulsbohemian 3y ago
    tptacek - normally I find your commentary insightful, but I'm a bit taken aback by your stance on bees, plus feel its a bit out of step with many beekeepers / researchers. There are commercial and research beekeepers who are also taking steps to protect native bees and pollinator habitats and spread awareness of the same. In my "backyard" there are at least three types of native bees in addition to my hives. Would be very interested to understand the root of your fervor against apis mellifera.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      I don't really have a problem with backyard beekeepers; it's just in the US, they've become emblematic of a kind of evangelical and ill-informed faux-environmentalism and I'm fond of pointing out that, here at least, they're essentially the battery-farmed hogs of the insect world. Also I'm scared of them. I like a mason bee. Docile and fuzzy, those guys.
      - poulsbohemian 3y ago
        I wish we were closer geographically - would love to invite you out to connect with our local beekeepers and share a frosty beverage as it sounds like it would be a positive exchange. I can't speak for those in urban areas - I can imagine the type you are describing though and I can see how that would be grating. Here in the middle of nowhere, I think many are aware that we are fundamentally keeping livestock that are not native to this continent. The commercial beekeepers in particular see no romance in what they do - it's about 18 wheelers of boxes headed to CA for almond pollination.
        cryptonector 3y ago
        And commercial honey producers also see no romance in what they do. We're switching to top-bar hives, and after that it will be comb honey only, because I don't want to bother extracting honey if it's not in Langstroth frames, and I don't want any more Langstroth. I'm thinking I'll still have some Langstroth supers because, well, I don't kill bees when inspecting supers or harvesting, it's when I get into the deeps that killing bees becomes almost impossible to avoid, and if that works out I think that will yield better-looking comb honey. I'm done with plastic foundation, too, and therefore also with centrifugal extractors.
cryptonector 3y ago
I am quite interested in building native bee "hotels".
- ianburrell 3y ago
  Mason bees lay nest in holes. Hotels are bundle of tubes mounted on wall. It is supposed to be important get goods ones, which seem to have wood trays instead of tubes, but I don't have a source on those. Some people bring the full hotels inside for winter but I get mild winters and figure bees know what they are doing. Then the bees emerge in the spring and lay eggs for winter. The tubes need to be cleaned or replaced, but not sure when. Thanks for reminding me, I've been meaning to put up a mason bee hotel. I hope not too late. Most other native bees are ground nesting. Leaving bare earth or brush piles can help.
  - ianburrell 3y ago
    Unfortunately, I think we missed the window for this year. It sounds like mason bees seal up cocoons in early summer. I found page on making wild bee sanctuary: https://davidsuzuki.org/living-green/how-to-grow-a-wild-bee-sanctuary/ https://davidsuzuki.org/living-green/how-to-grow-a-wild-bee-.... And one on mason bees: https://davidsuzuki.org/living-green/how-to-support-mason-bees-year-round/ https://davidsuzuki.org/living-green/how-to-support-mason-be....
cryptonector 3y ago
The genie is out of the bottle though. If all beekeeping stopped, honeybees would still be everywhere -- perhaps in smaller numbers, perhaps not. Are there any proposals to ban beekeeping? It's possible that in Texas the property tax break incentive for beekeeping will be removed, because it's fairly new and because it's getting abused. But I seriously doubt that a ban on beekeeping will pass anywhere. There are non-native plants (like almond trees) in the North Americas that are mainly pollinated by non-native bees. We couldn't realistically outlaw even just commercial beekeeping, though politically it may be possible to outlaw amateur beekeeping (would that make a dent?).

cryptonector 3y ago

> I see no reason to assume that every beekeeper is only in it for the honey. Excluding commercial beekeeping operations, the profit motives that small operations and amateur beekeepers keep bees include: - for the honey (to sell it at a profit) - for the hives (to sell them at a profit) - for side-lines like queen rearing (to sell them at a profit) - for property tax breaks There are also reasons that have no profit motives. Some beekeepers do it to "save the bees", but the bees don't need saving. Others do it because it's fun (yes, it is fun!). Some might even do it because the hum of the bees is so relaxing, and some even believe that bee venom stings are therapeutic (I've heard this from some friends).