4 ms·

I feel like narcissism gained public attention when the media started making armchair diagnosis of a certain orange man. I set out on a journey about 4 years a

I feel like narcissism gained public attention when the media started making armchair diagnosis of a certain orange man. I set out on a journey about 4 years ago to explore the trauma and abuse in my past, and a large number of resources for sufferers of C-PTSD deal with the fallout from narcissistic abuse. I eventually determined that my abusers are probably not narcissistic by any means, but I suppose it's good to raise awareness.

linuxftw 3y ago
They mention that man 3 times in the first few paragraphs. Like can't you at least try to appear to be impartial? But no. Let's alienate the readers.
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  Is anyone seriously alienated by the suggestion that Trump is a narcissist? You could be the most loyal Trump supporter ever on a political level and still acknowledge it. It is unavoidably obvious.
bemusedthrow75 3y ago
In the USA, perhaps. Though at the time of preparing the fifth edition of the DSM, there was a discussion about removing the definition of narcissism because its definition covered such a large proportion of the early 21st century US population that it had become meaningless; there is a wide consensus (and, outside the USA, a sort of humour trope) about the average American, and American culture in general, having become demonstrably more narcissistic over time. Here in the UK, the textbook example of a narcissist in politics was Robin Cook (about whom it was said he could not pass a mirror without checking his appearance). He had a series of affairs and was known to be intensely vain (and self-aware about it), but was not actually a bad human being beyond that weakness. Trump's narcissism is in a fairly extreme form, but it is by no means what explains his character alone. It is said to be better defined by the coupling of narcissism, sociopathy and sadism (the "dark triad") -- malignant narcissism. There's abundant evidence of the other two; his utter indifference to chants of "Hang Mike Pence" alone should convince anyone. It is the product of the abusive, cruel upbringing he received from his father and his indifferent mother. FWIW, I think it is also clear that Musk is a malignant narcissist. All the same indicators are there, and the same history with his father. But I hold out a little more hope for him; he is well-documented to be capable of emotional expression about the suffering his father inflicted and you can clearly see him trying to be better, thinking about what he says, reflecting on stuff. He does actually value humanity and you can see him wanting to be a better human. Trump could never do any of that. A third example: Andrew Tate. Again, he had a psychologically abusive father. He is filled with self-loathing as a result.
- gorenb 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - gorenb 3y ago
      The rest was to highlight satire. If you want to understand what “Kropotkin,” is, just Google “anarcho-communism.”
      - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
        [flagged]
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Regardless of the degree or magnitude of true narcissism among Americans, it's true that we have been growing in individualism for quite a while. And the more individualistic we become, the less room there is for collectivism and concern for the common good, but rather, "what's in it for me?" I suppose there may be a blurry dividing line between the two concepts, but it's certainly easier to uphold individualism as a virtue, and encourage others to cultivate it, rather than seeing it as a character fault and detrimental to national unity and morale.
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    I think the issue with the DSM was mostly that the definition -- in terms of language -- now covered routinely accepted behaviour. That is, it wasn't useful to use those terms to describe a disorder. What ultimately happened, as I recall, is a reworking of the definition to focus more on the core behaviour that Narcissistic Personality Disorder really means, though I guess functionally this might be much the same as saying "things we used to think were evidence of a diseased mind are now commonplace behaviours". I assure you that outside of the USA we've always admired the individualism and those aspects of the American Dream etc., and I don't think that is what the DSM debate was about. There's always been unfair tropes about Americans abroad but the change we would notice in the last 40 years is the whining/demands to be accommodated, the babying of language, and the growth of infantilism generally. The "Karen" trope is a consequence of cultural narcissism. You guys have changed. I'm sure the Brits have too (and in a few holiday destinations we are the worst tourists on earth, no question, though that's not narcissism, it's cheap booze) but I don't know if our core character has changed (for better or worse!) and I would say the world misses the cool self-assuredness it used to associate with the USA. "What's in it for me?" is selfishness, not narcissism.
_yb2s 3y ago
What made you initially think they might have been narcissists, but later decided they weren't? In particular, it seems to me that many people that are autistic, might seem like narcissists to others, but it is a very different experience for them.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  > What made you initially think they might have been narcissists, but later decided they weren't? Not what I said.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

linuxftw 3y ago

They mention that man 3 times in the first few paragraphs. Like can't you at least try to appear to be impartial? But no. Let's alienate the readers.

bemusedthrow75 3y ago
Is anyone seriously alienated by the suggestion that Trump is a narcissist? You could be the most loyal Trump supporter ever on a political level and still acknowledge it. It is unavoidably obvious.

bemusedthrow75 3y ago

In the USA, perhaps. Though at the time of preparing the fifth edition of the DSM, there was a discussion about removing the definition of narcissism because its definition covered such a large proportion of the early 21st century US population that it had become meaningless; there is a wide consensus (and, outside the USA, a sort of humour trope) about the average American, and American culture in general, having become demonstrably more narcissistic over time. Here in the UK, the textbook example of a narcissist in politics was Robin Cook (about whom it was said he could not pass a mirror without checking his appearance). He had a series of affairs and was known to be intensely vain (and self-aware about it), but was not actually a bad human being beyond that weakness. Trump's narcissism is in a fairly extreme form, but it is by no means what explains his character alone. It is said to be better defined by the coupling of narcissism, sociopathy and sadism (the "dark triad") -- malignant narcissism. There's abundant evidence of the other two; his utter indifference to chants of "Hang Mike Pence" alone should convince anyone. It is the product of the abusive, cruel upbringing he received from his father and his indifferent mother. FWIW, I think it is also clear that Musk is a malignant narcissist. All the same indicators are there, and the same history with his father. But I hold out a little more hope for him; he is well-documented to be capable of emotional expression about the suffering his father inflicted and you can clearly see him trying to be better, thinking about what he says, reflecting on stuff. He does actually value humanity and you can see him wanting to be a better human. Trump could never do any of that. A third example: Andrew Tate. Again, he had a psychologically abusive father. He is filled with self-loathing as a result.

gorenb 3y ago
[flagged]
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - gorenb 3y ago
    The rest was to highlight satire. If you want to understand what “Kropotkin,” is, just Google “anarcho-communism.”
    - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
      [flagged]
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Regardless of the degree or magnitude of true narcissism among Americans, it's true that we have been growing in individualism for quite a while. And the more individualistic we become, the less room there is for collectivism and concern for the common good, but rather, "what's in it for me?" I suppose there may be a blurry dividing line between the two concepts, but it's certainly easier to uphold individualism as a virtue, and encourage others to cultivate it, rather than seeing it as a character fault and detrimental to national unity and morale.
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  I think the issue with the DSM was mostly that the definition -- in terms of language -- now covered routinely accepted behaviour. That is, it wasn't useful to use those terms to describe a disorder. What ultimately happened, as I recall, is a reworking of the definition to focus more on the core behaviour that Narcissistic Personality Disorder really means, though I guess functionally this might be much the same as saying "things we used to think were evidence of a diseased mind are now commonplace behaviours". I assure you that outside of the USA we've always admired the individualism and those aspects of the American Dream etc., and I don't think that is what the DSM debate was about. There's always been unfair tropes about Americans abroad but the change we would notice in the last 40 years is the whining/demands to be accommodated, the babying of language, and the growth of infantilism generally. The "Karen" trope is a consequence of cultural narcissism. You guys have changed. I'm sure the Brits have too (and in a few holiday destinations we are the worst tourists on earth, no question, though that's not narcissism, it's cheap booze) but I don't know if our core character has changed (for better or worse!) and I would say the world misses the cool self-assuredness it used to associate with the USA. "What's in it for me?" is selfishness, not narcissism.

_yb2s 3y ago

What made you initially think they might have been narcissists, but later decided they weren't? In particular, it seems to me that many people that are autistic, might seem like narcissists to others, but it is a very different experience for them.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
> What made you initially think they might have been narcissists, but later decided they weren't? Not what I said.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]