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Survival is almost always increased by ignoring government officials, I dont know why we have to keep relearning this lesson over and over again but some people

Survival is almost always increased by ignoring government officials, I dont know why we have to keep relearning this lesson over and over again but some people still follow government like they have some divine knowledge Government works best which is subservient to the people, the second it becomes something else bad things will happen

ompogUe 3y ago
Also, there is knowing the limits of the governments capabilities, and accentuating it. The Cajun Navy started out with someone's great aunt rounding up some bass boats in the swamp to send to New Orleans after Katrina. It now has dispatchers on call (which takes pressure off of the 911 system) collecting needs, channeling volunteers where rescues are needed, and piping emergencies to 911. Also, has built expertise around post-disaster rebuilding - CNGF has boots on the ground in Maui.
LorenPechtel 3y ago
No. Government generally has a much better big picture than you do and thus is more likely to get it right. Where they typically get it wrong is avoiding a known small risk vs a possible bigger risk. However, in this case it seems to be a known small risk vs a certain much bigger risk.
- creer 3y ago
  The government's plan is then probably about overall statistics and nothing to do with your personal well being. You better consider it.
- hermitdev 3y ago
  No, the local residents and first responders have a much better big picture on local issues, which a wildfire most definitely is. The problem with wildfires is a lot of personnel and management get shipped in from elsewhere, and they often have no clue on local conditions. I have great admiration for the firefighters that work wildfires, but the management is awful. But, I'm probably bitter because the Fed burned my parents' house down due to mismanagement of a wildfire.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Strong disagree. The government big picture sets heuristics that makes sense for a lot of people a lot of the time. Even when it's right, it does not take into account personal circumstance which is only knowable to the individual.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  I am not sure how anyone can claim this with a strait face having lived through 2020-2023.... which is living memory so I do not have to do back into the recorded history to show government failure. I can just talk about my lived experience at how completely incompetent government is at managing "emergencies" Central planning is always bad, be it for emergencies or economics or anything else
  - creer 3y ago
    As opposed to? I mean there isn't much alternative to central planning. But that doesn't prevent local planning and individuals doing the best for themselves.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      Why does there need to be an alternative, and yes central planning often does prevent both local planning and individuals " doing the best for themselves. " for example in the context of Covid response there were many FEDERAL policies put in place that preventing local authorities from overriding them, and prevented "individuals doing the best for themselves. " Some of these were over turned by the courts after months or years of fighting, some the central planners just rescinded, but in all cases the central planning supplanted local and individual freedom In the context of Maui, I bet there are federal policies in place on the subject of Forrest management, fire control, etc that all supplant local authority, and certainly remove individual control
      - creer 3y ago
        Abuses and corruption is how government is done in the US. Sure. That's a problem. As much at the federal as local levels. People can't help themselves. But would the ideal really be to remove all federal action? In the case of Covid, as much as the top policies were messed up in places, individuals around me very much paid attention and did what they could in addition or in place of that. They still run their own testing standards for example and take anything from CDC with a grain of salt (that will take a LONG time to fix - probably for the better). For one, the massive amounts of money poured into vaccines and lab tests and home tests, IMO, made a difference that would have been much harder to achieve for locals or purely commercial efforts.
- Fricken 3y ago
  I recommend the book "Seeing Like a State" by James C. Scott: >Scott shows how central governments attempt to force legibility on their subjects, and fail to see complex, valuable forms of local social order and knowledge. A main theme of this book, illustrated by his historic examples, is that states operate systems of power toward 'legibility' in order to see their subjects correctly in a top-down, modernist, model that is flawed, problematic, and often ends poorly for subjects. The goal of local legibility by the state is transparency from the top down, from the top of the tower or the center/seat of the government, so the state can effectively operate upon their subjects. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State#:~:text=Seeing%20Like%20a%20State%3A%20How,accordance%20with%20purported%20scientific%20laws https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State#:~:text=....
- commandlinefan 3y ago
  > much better big picture Yeah, the big picture includes sacrificing you in favor of somebody more "important" than you.
Karellen 3y ago
Good luck ignoring the next government-issued evacuation order or shelter-in-place order in your region then.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  The point is that it's context-specific. Only you have the personal context. I know several people that have ignored fire evacuation orders and saved their homes instead. No fire department is going to tell people to fight the fire because they don't know people's individual situations. Shelter and place orders are another funny one. I have a lot of fond memories ignoring shelter in place orders hiking and camping in the wilderness during covid. It probably reduced my risk versus Sheltering at home. Blanket orders were one size fits all, made to address the person that is going to parties and bars. The government is never looking out for your individual interests. It only cares about the average, and you can be the person that dies as collateral damage from an order that still has a good average outcome
  - callalex 3y ago
    >The government is never looking out for your individual interests. It only cares about the average, and you can be the person that dies that's collateral damage from an order that still has a good average outcome This only works up to a point. If everyone stays home and turns on their sprinklers and hoses, the water distribution system quickly fails, and then NOBODY can fight the fire, be it individuals or the average. This is a very simple lesson that was learned more than a century ago. Acting in a selfish manner only works if a tiny fraction of people do that. We typically name these people after a certain excreting orifice for a reason.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      I'm not saying everyone should stay home. I'm explicitly acknowledging that the average policy works for the average person. The people that I know that fought fires are Rural and not even on a distribution system. They saved their home while the firefighters passively watched their neighbors houses burned down. The firefighters orders were to make sure there were no fires by a Road intersection, and since there weren't, this meant standing around doing nothing for 24 hours within shouting distance of houses burning down. A good example of how public priorities don't always match your personal priorities. I get that people hate non-conformists and deviance, but Not everything needs to be an us vs them zero-sum game.

ompogUe 3y ago

Also, there is knowing the limits of the governments capabilities, and accentuating it. The Cajun Navy started out with someone's great aunt rounding up some bass boats in the swamp to send to New Orleans after Katrina. It now has dispatchers on call (which takes pressure off of the 911 system) collecting needs, channeling volunteers where rescues are needed, and piping emergencies to 911. Also, has built expertise around post-disaster rebuilding - CNGF has boots on the ground in Maui.

LorenPechtel 3y ago

No. Government generally has a much better big picture than you do and thus is more likely to get it right. Where they typically get it wrong is avoiding a known small risk vs a possible bigger risk. However, in this case it seems to be a known small risk vs a certain much bigger risk.

creer 3y ago
The government's plan is then probably about overall statistics and nothing to do with your personal well being. You better consider it.
hermitdev 3y ago
No, the local residents and first responders have a much better big picture on local issues, which a wildfire most definitely is. The problem with wildfires is a lot of personnel and management get shipped in from elsewhere, and they often have no clue on local conditions. I have great admiration for the firefighters that work wildfires, but the management is awful. But, I'm probably bitter because the Fed burned my parents' house down due to mismanagement of a wildfire.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
Strong disagree. The government big picture sets heuristics that makes sense for a lot of people a lot of the time. Even when it's right, it does not take into account personal circumstance which is only knowable to the individual.
phpisthebest 3y ago
I am not sure how anyone can claim this with a strait face having lived through 2020-2023.... which is living memory so I do not have to do back into the recorded history to show government failure. I can just talk about my lived experience at how completely incompetent government is at managing "emergencies" Central planning is always bad, be it for emergencies or economics or anything else
- creer 3y ago
  As opposed to? I mean there isn't much alternative to central planning. But that doesn't prevent local planning and individuals doing the best for themselves.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    Why does there need to be an alternative, and yes central planning often does prevent both local planning and individuals " doing the best for themselves. " for example in the context of Covid response there were many FEDERAL policies put in place that preventing local authorities from overriding them, and prevented "individuals doing the best for themselves. " Some of these were over turned by the courts after months or years of fighting, some the central planners just rescinded, but in all cases the central planning supplanted local and individual freedom In the context of Maui, I bet there are federal policies in place on the subject of Forrest management, fire control, etc that all supplant local authority, and certainly remove individual control
    - creer 3y ago
      Abuses and corruption is how government is done in the US. Sure. That's a problem. As much at the federal as local levels. People can't help themselves. But would the ideal really be to remove all federal action? In the case of Covid, as much as the top policies were messed up in places, individuals around me very much paid attention and did what they could in addition or in place of that. They still run their own testing standards for example and take anything from CDC with a grain of salt (that will take a LONG time to fix - probably for the better). For one, the massive amounts of money poured into vaccines and lab tests and home tests, IMO, made a difference that would have been much harder to achieve for locals or purely commercial efforts.
Fricken 3y ago
I recommend the book "Seeing Like a State" by James C. Scott: >Scott shows how central governments attempt to force legibility on their subjects, and fail to see complex, valuable forms of local social order and knowledge. A main theme of this book, illustrated by his historic examples, is that states operate systems of power toward 'legibility' in order to see their subjects correctly in a top-down, modernist, model that is flawed, problematic, and often ends poorly for subjects. The goal of local legibility by the state is transparency from the top down, from the top of the tower or the center/seat of the government, so the state can effectively operate upon their subjects. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State#:~:text=Seeing%20Like%20a%20State%3A%20How,accordance%20with%20purported%20scientific%20laws https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State#:~:text=....
commandlinefan 3y ago
> much better big picture Yeah, the big picture includes sacrificing you in favor of somebody more "important" than you.

Karellen 3y ago

Good luck ignoring the next government-issued evacuation order or shelter-in-place order in your region then.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
The point is that it's context-specific. Only you have the personal context. I know several people that have ignored fire evacuation orders and saved their homes instead. No fire department is going to tell people to fight the fire because they don't know people's individual situations. Shelter and place orders are another funny one. I have a lot of fond memories ignoring shelter in place orders hiking and camping in the wilderness during covid. It probably reduced my risk versus Sheltering at home. Blanket orders were one size fits all, made to address the person that is going to parties and bars. The government is never looking out for your individual interests. It only cares about the average, and you can be the person that dies as collateral damage from an order that still has a good average outcome
- callalex 3y ago
  >The government is never looking out for your individual interests. It only cares about the average, and you can be the person that dies that's collateral damage from an order that still has a good average outcome This only works up to a point. If everyone stays home and turns on their sprinklers and hoses, the water distribution system quickly fails, and then NOBODY can fight the fire, be it individuals or the average. This is a very simple lesson that was learned more than a century ago. Acting in a selfish manner only works if a tiny fraction of people do that. We typically name these people after a certain excreting orifice for a reason.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I'm not saying everyone should stay home. I'm explicitly acknowledging that the average policy works for the average person. The people that I know that fought fires are Rural and not even on a distribution system. They saved their home while the firefighters passively watched their neighbors houses burned down. The firefighters orders were to make sure there were no fires by a Road intersection, and since there weren't, this meant standing around doing nothing for 24 hours within shouting distance of houses burning down. A good example of how public priorities don't always match your personal priorities. I get that people hate non-conformists and deviance, but Not everything needs to be an us vs them zero-sum game.