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Let me tell you that it can go much too far in that direction too. We have repulsing examples of especially young criminals that get off very serious crimes wit

by mongol 3y ago

Let me tell you that it can go much too far in that direction too. We have repulsing examples of especially young criminals that get off very serious crimes with not much more than a slap on the wrist.

deleted 3y ago
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Mechanical9 3y ago
I've seen that too. IMO, neither "direction" is what matters here. Both cases are failures to apply justice appropriately. It's tiring that efforts to reform always seem to be led by people who are either "tough" or "soft" on crime.
- mongol 3y ago
  Exactly. There is a balance, and when you suggest society should go in a certain direction, some are quick to assume that you mean to take it to the extreme.
lyu07282 3y ago
Oh I'd imagine especially the rise of tabloid news has driven a lot of resentment towards the rehabilitation-based judiciary system in Scandinavian countries, but its still the job of a functioning government to protect its rehabilitation/evidence-based justice system. After all there are conservatives everywhere, attempting to cash in on law and order politics, doesn't help that with the rise of neoliberalism there comes an inability to address the aforementioned root causes of increases in crime (like a failure to address the causes of gang-related violence and failures in integration of immigrants in the case of Sweden) so the only answer is more punitive justice across the board and down the drain the evidence-based justice system goes. What I'm saying is its not the evidence-based justice system to blame, its the root causes of crime that need to be addressed, if that fails, changing the justice system is addressing the symptom not the cause. That is what the united states is doing, resulting in inhumane treatment of prisoners and the highest prison population in the world, not something you really want to advocate for (at least in theory if you aren't conservative of course).
- mongol 3y ago
  Your comments are so far from the reality as it evolves in Sweden in recent years that it is pointless to respond. It is obvious you have no idea what is going on here. You can't apply US liberal glasses to fix a situation caused by more left-leaning liberalism than the US have ever seen.
- Gud 3y ago
  It is interesting how you put an equal sign between rehabilitation and evidence based justice. In Sweden we have people getting out of prison after running people down with their cars and killing them after having already committed dozens of violent crimes, only to continue committing crimes as soon as they get out. After a while there’s not much else that can be done but lock certain people up for good.
- fakedang 3y ago
  > What I'm saying is its not the evidence-based justice system to blame, its the root causes of crime that need to be addressed, if that fails, changing the justice system is addressing the symptom not the cause. What about crime that's on the rise because of a relatively lenient rehabilitation oriented criminal policy? Most of the crime I've seen perpetuated in Germany and Scandinavia, especially the more gruesome ones, are often perpetuated by second-generation immigrants "left out" of a system where they don't even want to actively take part in - many of them want the benefits of being part of a welfare state, but it's only a minority of those who want to contribute to it. Case in point, migrants specifically from Africa and the Middle East are a net negative to the Danish welfare state, according to the government's own stats. Before rushing to downvote me, note that I used to be one suc migrant to Germany yet I could see that the system in place isn't sustainable. Most governments such as the Scandinavian and German ones have resorted to hiding their numbers to conceal the failures of their policies (all in an effort to bring cheap labour). Source for above assertion: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00148-017-0636-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00148-017-0636-1

by mongol 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Mechanical9 3y ago

I've seen that too. IMO, neither "direction" is what matters here. Both cases are failures to apply justice appropriately. It's tiring that efforts to reform always seem to be led by people who are either "tough" or "soft" on crime.

mongol 3y ago
Exactly. There is a balance, and when you suggest society should go in a certain direction, some are quick to assume that you mean to take it to the extreme.

lyu07282 3y ago

Oh I'd imagine especially the rise of tabloid news has driven a lot of resentment towards the rehabilitation-based judiciary system in Scandinavian countries, but its still the job of a functioning government to protect its rehabilitation/evidence-based justice system. After all there are conservatives everywhere, attempting to cash in on law and order politics, doesn't help that with the rise of neoliberalism there comes an inability to address the aforementioned root causes of increases in crime (like a failure to address the causes of gang-related violence and failures in integration of immigrants in the case of Sweden) so the only answer is more punitive justice across the board and down the drain the evidence-based justice system goes. What I'm saying is its not the evidence-based justice system to blame, its the root causes of crime that need to be addressed, if that fails, changing the justice system is addressing the symptom not the cause. That is what the united states is doing, resulting in inhumane treatment of prisoners and the highest prison population in the world, not something you really want to advocate for (at least in theory if you aren't conservative of course).

mongol 3y ago
Your comments are so far from the reality as it evolves in Sweden in recent years that it is pointless to respond. It is obvious you have no idea what is going on here. You can't apply US liberal glasses to fix a situation caused by more left-leaning liberalism than the US have ever seen.
Gud 3y ago
It is interesting how you put an equal sign between rehabilitation and evidence based justice. In Sweden we have people getting out of prison after running people down with their cars and killing them after having already committed dozens of violent crimes, only to continue committing crimes as soon as they get out. After a while there’s not much else that can be done but lock certain people up for good.
fakedang 3y ago
> What I'm saying is its not the evidence-based justice system to blame, its the root causes of crime that need to be addressed, if that fails, changing the justice system is addressing the symptom not the cause. What about crime that's on the rise because of a relatively lenient rehabilitation oriented criminal policy? Most of the crime I've seen perpetuated in Germany and Scandinavia, especially the more gruesome ones, are often perpetuated by second-generation immigrants "left out" of a system where they don't even want to actively take part in - many of them want the benefits of being part of a welfare state, but it's only a minority of those who want to contribute to it. Case in point, migrants specifically from Africa and the Middle East are a net negative to the Danish welfare state, according to the government's own stats. Before rushing to downvote me, note that I used to be one suc migrant to Germany yet I could see that the system in place isn't sustainable. Most governments such as the Scandinavian and German ones have resorted to hiding their numbers to conceal the failures of their policies (all in an effort to bring cheap labour). Source for above assertion: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00148-017-0636-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00148-017-0636-1