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It's not always like that. Take for instance washing machines. They aren't conceptually complicated from user perspective. More or less, they have well-define

It's not always like that. Take for instance washing machines. They aren't conceptually complicated from user perspective. More or less, they have well-defined configuration parameters. You don't need a complex model of a washing machine in order to successfully operate it by any stretch of imagination. That is, unless you buy a modern washing machine... where instead of having separate controls for water temperature and time you get a single knob. In most cases it doesn't even have a line on it to show which direction it points. It's just a round knob you can rotate endlessly. When you rotate it, in seemingly random order the lights near cryptic icons go on and off. Even if you can sort-of guess what a particular icon might mean, you will have very hard time finding a combination of the desired temperature and time. And this is not unique to washing machines. Try toaster-oven, or water boiler, vacuum cleaner, air conditioner... modern day household electronics have the most idiotic design in their entire history. And they aren't conceptually hard to use. People who came up with the interface made it unnecessary complex and convoluted. And it's not a one-of event. This keeps happening all across the board, different brands, different kinds of equipment... My explanation to this is not that it sells better: I'd absolutely buy a washing machine with text labels instead of icons. It's some kind of bizarre trend where manufacturers think it's more "stylish" this way. Hell, take modern furniture or bathroom equipment for example. There's a bizarre trend to avoid showing the screw caps. It makes installing stuff much harder and the final installation more fragile and suspect to accidental damage... and yet it's nigh impossible to find simple(r) alternatives which would be durable and easy to assemble.

masfuerte 3y ago
The icon thing is so they can sell the same appliance everywhere without localizing it. (Of course, they still have to localize the manual but their inventory management is simplified.) That doesn't help you though.
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  Precisely. If you want text labels and you're trying to sell the same washing machine in Japan and Germany, you've just given the user interface designer the challenge of writing labels where there's a 10x difference in the average length of the symbol. Making up novel hieroglyphics and letting the user memorize them is just cheaper.
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    >If you want text labels and you're trying to sell the same washing machine in Japan and Germany, you've just given the user interface designer the challenge of writing labels where there's a 10x difference in the average length of the symbol. No one sells the same washing machines in Japan and Germany. In Japan, the washing machines are made only for the Japanese market, not for export (some are imported from China, but these too are specifically made for the Japanese market, and are very different from machines sold elsewhere). The cheaper machines have all text labels, and a lot of buttons, all in Japanese. The fancy machines like mine have touchscreens, with an enormous number of different settings and functions, and again it's all in Japanese with no ability to change languages, there there are also some icons along with the text, but not enough to use the machine without reading Japanese.
  - plugin-baby 3y ago
    Can you match the icon to the icons in clothing labels?
- crabbone 3y ago
  You really think it would make it very difficult to localize "time" and "temperature"? -- because these the only two labels that are actually needed for a washing machine. I would even take icons for both. Something that looks like a clock face and something that looks like a thermometer would work just fine. The problem is that it's not even close... Also, I worked in printing, specifically flexo / silk / tampo, i.e. the stuff that gets printed on all sorts of curved surfaces, stickers, souvenirs, mugs etc. Yeah, it adds a bit of complexity... but compared to the price of equipment, at least the printing part is nothing. It might have to do with packaging and managing inventory for different languages... but then again they also need other localized stuff... so who knows.
  - nkohari 3y ago
    > It might have to do with packaging and managing inventory for different languages Yeah -- it's not a localization problem, it's a supply chain problem. By removing the need to localize, they can manufacture and deliver a single SKU to any location. It's the same reason manuals are printed in 12 languages.
michaelt 3y ago
> That is, unless you buy a modern washing machine... where instead of having separate controls for water temperature and time you get a single knob. [...] When you rotate it, in seemingly random order the lights near cryptic icons go on and off. Maybe washing machines are different in your market to in mine? In my region washing machines [1] have a dial, labelled in english, listing programs like 'cotton' and clearly labelled push buttons for temperature and spin speed. I could only see one that doesn't have such an interface [2] and it comes at a substantial premium. The UI situation with washing machines is much better than for things like smart TVs. [1] https://www.johnlewis.com/browse/electricals/washing-machines-tumble-dryers/washing-machines/_/N-afh?chunk=2 https://www.johnlewis.com/browse/electricals/washing-machine... [2] https://www.johnlewis.com/miele-wer865wps-freestanding-washing-machine-9kg-load-1600rpm-spin-white/p4814140 https://www.johnlewis.com/miele-wer865wps-freestanding-washi...
- crabbone 3y ago
  This is the one similar to the one I have: https://www.lg.com/us/washers-dryers/lg-wm6500hba-front-load-washer https://www.lg.com/us/washers-dryers/lg-wm6500hba-front-load... . I also had one before it from a different manufacturer, but cannot find it at the moment. Also, I really don't want programs like "cotton" either. This just doesn't mean anything really. It's just noise. I want two dials, for time and temperature.
  - yencabulator 3y ago
    A modern washer will self-select time based on the amount of clothing. This often cuts down the time needed from what the user thought was needed.
  - dagw 3y ago
    I want two dials, for time and temperature. For me a washing machine without a wool setting and where I cannot control the spin cycle is an instant no. On the other hand I have no use for time dial, as I would expect the washing machine to work that out for me. Which is the problem manufacturers have, your must have feature is useless to me and my must have feature is useless to you. So either they have to make two different models of washers or they have to try to combine all the features into one machine.
wongarsu 3y ago
The weird thing is that what you are describing is a very American washing machine. What I'm used to from Europe looks more like [1]. You select the desired program with the knob based on what you loaded, then adjust temperature and spin speed with the touch inputs (some programs will block out some options, e.g. wool won't let you do more than 40°C or 800 rpm), you can add some options like more water, and based on that the machine does its thing, running a program specialized to achieve the desired outcome. It tells you how much time it needs, but it's not something you have manual control over. And of course everything is labeled ... printing different text on a $200-$2000 machine doesn't break the bank for non-american manufacturers. 1: https://media.miele.com/images/2000018/200001856/20000185612.png https://media.miele.com/images/2000018/200001856/20000185612...
- midoridensha 3y ago
  >The weird thing is that what you are describing is a very American washing machine. What I'm used to from Europe looks more like... Absolutely true. Machines in Japan don't resemble his description at all. My machine has a touchscreen with a ridiculous number of options and settings, all printed in Japanese, along with 4 physical buttons (on, off, start/pause, and back). The cheaper machines don't have a touchscreen, but instead a bunch of buttons that basically do what yours does. Knobs don't seem to be a thing here (on washing machines; they are on the fancier microwave ovens though, strangely).
twobitshifter 3y ago
Refrigerators are another one. A top freezer is simple because on the coolant loop that’s the coldest area, keep it cold until it produces refrigeration level temp and then as it warms return it to the compressor at the bottom using gravity. But everyone wants freezers at the bottom, or french doors so complexity is added to fight physics. Last air conditioner I bought (and returned) had Alexa built in but not the ability to keep the fan running all night.
- HWR_14 3y ago
  There is a difference is a freezer on the bottom or French door isn't just aesthetic. It changes how people use the fridge. Bottom freezer drawers are easier to random access, for instance, and don't lose as much of the cold when open, and thus are a good solution for people who freeze a lot of stuff. That it, it makes the physics harder but produces a payoff.
  - twobitshifter 3y ago
    It’s probably true of most complexity, it’s added for a functional purpose and payoff, but takes away from the simplicity. People choose the complexity of a bottom freezer, but in this case the complexity of the choice isn’t even apparent to them. It’s unlikely to keep running as long as a top freezer fridge from the 80s or 90s, but they don’t know that when buying.
- yencabulator 3y ago
  That old school simpler design you refer to has its own problems, relying on a fixed ratio of cooling where you often get either a warm freezer or cold fridge. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PTjPzw9VhY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PTjPzw9VhY Modern fridge/freezer combos want to control the ratio of cooling. This is often done as simply as controlling a fan that moves cold air between the compartments.
RayFrankenstein 3y ago
These designs are usually added to show the executives of the company that a branch of the org chart and its Important People can "add value". Conversely, the fastest way to turn around a failing company is to search through company e-mail archives, find everyone who has ever used the phrase "add value", and purge them from the company.
- deciplex 3y ago
  > the fastest way to turn around a failing company is to search through company e-mail archives, find everyone who has ever used the phrase "add value", and purge them from the company but you'd purge the entire c-suite if you did that!
  - RayFrankenstein 3y ago
    I fail to see the problem with that

masfuerte 3y ago

The icon thing is so they can sell the same appliance everywhere without localizing it. (Of course, they still have to localize the manual but their inventory management is simplified.) That doesn't help you though.

shadowgovt 3y ago
Precisely. If you want text labels and you're trying to sell the same washing machine in Japan and Germany, you've just given the user interface designer the challenge of writing labels where there's a 10x difference in the average length of the symbol. Making up novel hieroglyphics and letting the user memorize them is just cheaper.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  >If you want text labels and you're trying to sell the same washing machine in Japan and Germany, you've just given the user interface designer the challenge of writing labels where there's a 10x difference in the average length of the symbol. No one sells the same washing machines in Japan and Germany. In Japan, the washing machines are made only for the Japanese market, not for export (some are imported from China, but these too are specifically made for the Japanese market, and are very different from machines sold elsewhere). The cheaper machines have all text labels, and a lot of buttons, all in Japanese. The fancy machines like mine have touchscreens, with an enormous number of different settings and functions, and again it's all in Japanese with no ability to change languages, there there are also some icons along with the text, but not enough to use the machine without reading Japanese.
- plugin-baby 3y ago
  Can you match the icon to the icons in clothing labels?
crabbone 3y ago
You really think it would make it very difficult to localize "time" and "temperature"? -- because these the only two labels that are actually needed for a washing machine. I would even take icons for both. Something that looks like a clock face and something that looks like a thermometer would work just fine. The problem is that it's not even close... Also, I worked in printing, specifically flexo / silk / tampo, i.e. the stuff that gets printed on all sorts of curved surfaces, stickers, souvenirs, mugs etc. Yeah, it adds a bit of complexity... but compared to the price of equipment, at least the printing part is nothing. It might have to do with packaging and managing inventory for different languages... but then again they also need other localized stuff... so who knows.
- nkohari 3y ago
  > It might have to do with packaging and managing inventory for different languages Yeah -- it's not a localization problem, it's a supply chain problem. By removing the need to localize, they can manufacture and deliver a single SKU to any location. It's the same reason manuals are printed in 12 languages.

michaelt 3y ago

> That is, unless you buy a modern washing machine... where instead of having separate controls for water temperature and time you get a single knob. [...] When you rotate it, in seemingly random order the lights near cryptic icons go on and off. Maybe washing machines are different in your market to in mine? In my region washing machines [1] have a dial, labelled in english, listing programs like 'cotton' and clearly labelled push buttons for temperature and spin speed. I could only see one that doesn't have such an interface [2] and it comes at a substantial premium. The UI situation with washing machines is much better than for things like smart TVs. [1] https://www.johnlewis.com/browse/electricals/washing-machines-tumble-dryers/washing-machines/_/N-afh?chunk=2 https://www.johnlewis.com/browse/electricals/washing-machine... [2] https://www.johnlewis.com/miele-wer865wps-freestanding-washing-machine-9kg-load-1600rpm-spin-white/p4814140 https://www.johnlewis.com/miele-wer865wps-freestanding-washi...

crabbone 3y ago
This is the one similar to the one I have: https://www.lg.com/us/washers-dryers/lg-wm6500hba-front-load-washer https://www.lg.com/us/washers-dryers/lg-wm6500hba-front-load... . I also had one before it from a different manufacturer, but cannot find it at the moment. Also, I really don't want programs like "cotton" either. This just doesn't mean anything really. It's just noise. I want two dials, for time and temperature.
- yencabulator 3y ago
  A modern washer will self-select time based on the amount of clothing. This often cuts down the time needed from what the user thought was needed.
- dagw 3y ago
  I want two dials, for time and temperature. For me a washing machine without a wool setting and where I cannot control the spin cycle is an instant no. On the other hand I have no use for time dial, as I would expect the washing machine to work that out for me. Which is the problem manufacturers have, your must have feature is useless to me and my must have feature is useless to you. So either they have to make two different models of washers or they have to try to combine all the features into one machine.

wongarsu 3y ago

The weird thing is that what you are describing is a very American washing machine. What I'm used to from Europe looks more like [1]. You select the desired program with the knob based on what you loaded, then adjust temperature and spin speed with the touch inputs (some programs will block out some options, e.g. wool won't let you do more than 40°C or 800 rpm), you can add some options like more water, and based on that the machine does its thing, running a program specialized to achieve the desired outcome. It tells you how much time it needs, but it's not something you have manual control over. And of course everything is labeled ... printing different text on a $200-$2000 machine doesn't break the bank for non-american manufacturers. 1: https://media.miele.com/images/2000018/200001856/20000185612.png https://media.miele.com/images/2000018/200001856/20000185612...

midoridensha 3y ago
>The weird thing is that what you are describing is a very American washing machine. What I'm used to from Europe looks more like... Absolutely true. Machines in Japan don't resemble his description at all. My machine has a touchscreen with a ridiculous number of options and settings, all printed in Japanese, along with 4 physical buttons (on, off, start/pause, and back). The cheaper machines don't have a touchscreen, but instead a bunch of buttons that basically do what yours does. Knobs don't seem to be a thing here (on washing machines; they are on the fancier microwave ovens though, strangely).

twobitshifter 3y ago

Refrigerators are another one. A top freezer is simple because on the coolant loop that’s the coldest area, keep it cold until it produces refrigeration level temp and then as it warms return it to the compressor at the bottom using gravity. But everyone wants freezers at the bottom, or french doors so complexity is added to fight physics. Last air conditioner I bought (and returned) had Alexa built in but not the ability to keep the fan running all night.

HWR_14 3y ago
There is a difference is a freezer on the bottom or French door isn't just aesthetic. It changes how people use the fridge. Bottom freezer drawers are easier to random access, for instance, and don't lose as much of the cold when open, and thus are a good solution for people who freeze a lot of stuff. That it, it makes the physics harder but produces a payoff.
- twobitshifter 3y ago
  It’s probably true of most complexity, it’s added for a functional purpose and payoff, but takes away from the simplicity. People choose the complexity of a bottom freezer, but in this case the complexity of the choice isn’t even apparent to them. It’s unlikely to keep running as long as a top freezer fridge from the 80s or 90s, but they don’t know that when buying.
yencabulator 3y ago
That old school simpler design you refer to has its own problems, relying on a fixed ratio of cooling where you often get either a warm freezer or cold fridge. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PTjPzw9VhY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PTjPzw9VhY Modern fridge/freezer combos want to control the ratio of cooling. This is often done as simply as controlling a fan that moves cold air between the compartments.

RayFrankenstein 3y ago

These designs are usually added to show the executives of the company that a branch of the org chart and its Important People can "add value". Conversely, the fastest way to turn around a failing company is to search through company e-mail archives, find everyone who has ever used the phrase "add value", and purge them from the company.

deciplex 3y ago
> the fastest way to turn around a failing company is to search through company e-mail archives, find everyone who has ever used the phrase "add value", and purge them from the company but you'd purge the entire c-suite if you did that!
- RayFrankenstein 3y ago
  I fail to see the problem with that