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You'll be downvoted, but to answer this question with all honesty: 1) Disallowing a third-party in every single transaction you make, especially as 1a) Inflat

by dijit 3y ago

You'll be downvoted, but to answer this question with all honesty: 1) Disallowing a third-party in every single transaction you make, especially as 1a) Inflation means 3k now might be quite low in 20 years 1b) Banks themselves have been shown to be scummy 1c) Banks are a rare institution to allow outsiders into. 2) Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible; it's quite common for people to be ineligible for a bank account under random (but common) circumstances. -- an interesting loop you can get into is that you need to pay a utility bill in order to get a bank account, yet you can't pay a utility bill without a bank account. 3) Cash is the only fiat currency that actually exists, I know it's trendy to think that lines in a database are meaningful- but if you have physical cash you know what it's worth and it can't be hacked or seized. (though a good counterpoint is of course that you can be robbed or it can get destroyed). I live in Sweden and we're very far down the path of "cash is dead" - there's a considerable number of stores and fast food joints that do not even accept cash. However, when I moved to this country I couldn't open a bank account and without people accepting cash at that time I would have paid exorbitant fees on each transaction. So with that in mind I'm not in favour of restricting cash, I'm aware of the drawbacks of large fiat currency transactions; but It gives the central banks even more power than they currently have (which is a lot, which you'd know if you were on the wrong side of a policy or get into one of their loops) and we're not sure that they are going to continue to be fair into the future. Note: you cannot hold a bank account with the central bank that actually issues currency. You are voting for a middle-man.

thraxil 3y ago
> I live in Sweden and we're very far down the path of "cash is dead" - there's a considerable number of stores and fast food joints that do not even accept cash. However, when I moved to this country I couldn't open a bank account and without people accepting cash at that time I would have paid exorbitant fees on each transaction. I came here to say something similar. We moved to the Netherlands in 2014 from the US and it was three or four months before our immigration stuff was far enough along that we could open a local bank account with an IBAN and get a chip and pin card (at the time, virtually no US banks would give you chip and pin cards). My partner couldn't even get paid during that time until she had a bank account. We lived off withdrawing cash from my US account at ATMs. That included paying our rent (we were lucky that our landlord, who lived in a different city, was OK with us just paying cash to their relative who lived nearby).
bonzini 3y ago
> Cash is the only fiat currency that actually exists There's also money orders.
- scbrg 3y ago
  No there isn't. At least not in the European country I live in.
- culturestate 3y ago
  I think GP means “exists” as in “doesn’t require a third party to complete the value transfer.” If you give me a $20 bill, I can immediately exchange it for a case of beer at the bodega with no extra steps. If you give me a money order for $20, I need to find someone who is willing and/or able to convert that money order into a $20 bill before I can buy my beer.
  - 0xcde4c3db 3y ago
    Funnily enough, paper currency originated as something akin to money orders in the first place, and merchants started accepting them directly because they were much more convenient to transport and secure than the equivalent amount of coins. That's why the formal term for paper money is "banknotes".
  - bonzini 3y ago
    But money orders can be treated as fiat if enough people agree to do it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniassegno https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniassegno
    - culturestate 3y ago
      I mean so can, like, grams of lead but that’s not really the discussion we’re having at this moment.
- pc86 3y ago
  What do you think a money order is?
Aaargh20318 3y ago
> Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible; it's quite common for people to be ineligible for a bank account under random (but common) circumstances. Not in the Netherlands. Any adult (18 or older) resident of the EU has the right to a bank account, by law. > an interesting loop you can get into is that you need to pay a utility bill in order to get a bank account, yet you can't pay a utility bill without a bank account. Why would you need to pay a utility bill to get a bank account? Those two things are completely unrelated. All you need is a valid ID (either ID card, passport or drivers license) and you are required to have that anyway.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  Surely an ID isn't required, it's just that most have one anyway.
- SergeAx 3y ago
  > Not in the Netherlands. Any adult (18 or older) resident of the EU has the right to a bank account, by law. For immigrants or foreign workers a process of getting EU residence status may take months and sometimes require an EU bank account, so it may become an infinite loop. We have to take worst renting deals in order to get required papers, for example.
- dijit 3y ago
  You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID. A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license. (for example: I didn't when I got my first bank account). My first bank account was a deal my mother made with the bank where she acted as guarantor. having a right to a thing is not the same as actually getting it; there is a lot of anti-fraud legislation that exists and must be complied with. The bank isn't just going to fully open an account with nothing but an ID. I can say that with absolute confidence after working in financial services (albeit briefly).
  - ghaff 3y ago
    When I got a RealID-compliant driver's license a few years ago in my state in the US, an existing driver's license and passport were not sufficient. I needed some document to server as proof of my current address, such as a utility bill. I don't remember what all the options were but, yes, some people--including kids getting their first driver's license or people sharing an apartment who don't have their name on a lease--can run into issues.
NorwegianDude 3y ago
> Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible If you have a way to prove your ID(which basically everyone do in Norway) then bank accounts are very accessible and free. I don't know how many banks I have accounts at, but it's more than 15, and all you need is your ID and a couple of minutes to create an account.
- RMPR 3y ago
  > If you have a way to prove your ID(which basically everyone do in Norway) After going through the process of moving to Norway, I can say that unfortunately things are not that straightforward for foreigners. Even after getting your work permit, getting a personnummer can take up to several months after moving, not to mention getting an appointment with UDI can also take up to several months (in the meantime you'll feel like a lesser member of society, basic things like getting a library card are not accessible without it). After all there's a reason why this kind of service exist https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mpr_sua-techfasttrack-oslo-activity-7097341094467678208-UZCm https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mpr_sua-techfasttrack-oslo-ac... > then bank accounts are very accessible and free. I don't know how many banks I have accounts at, but it's more than 15, and all you need is your ID and a couple of minutes to create an account. This only works when you already have a BankID. It takes at least 1 month to open your first account. Granted after that, everything is smooth, but oh boy how much time does it take.
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    Where is your home country? Is the situation better or worse?
- dijit 3y ago
  Depends on country a lot; in the Scandinavian countries there's a central identification database which links your entire identity including the registered address. However, if I'm not from Norway/Sweden/Denmark then I'm not in that system yet.
- ericfrazier 3y ago
  ID and a decent credit report. I have been through times in my life where banks wouldn't give my spouse an account at all. No bank in Oregon or credit union would give her an account. To this day she still hasn't had a bank account in the last seven years. I can't even get a card in their name.

by dijit 3y ago

thraxil 3y ago

> I live in Sweden and we're very far down the path of "cash is dead" - there's a considerable number of stores and fast food joints that do not even accept cash. However, when I moved to this country I couldn't open a bank account and without people accepting cash at that time I would have paid exorbitant fees on each transaction. I came here to say something similar. We moved to the Netherlands in 2014 from the US and it was three or four months before our immigration stuff was far enough along that we could open a local bank account with an IBAN and get a chip and pin card (at the time, virtually no US banks would give you chip and pin cards). My partner couldn't even get paid during that time until she had a bank account. We lived off withdrawing cash from my US account at ATMs. That included paying our rent (we were lucky that our landlord, who lived in a different city, was OK with us just paying cash to their relative who lived nearby).

bonzini 3y ago

> Cash is the only fiat currency that actually exists There's also money orders.

scbrg 3y ago
No there isn't. At least not in the European country I live in.
culturestate 3y ago
I think GP means “exists” as in “doesn’t require a third party to complete the value transfer.” If you give me a $20 bill, I can immediately exchange it for a case of beer at the bodega with no extra steps. If you give me a money order for $20, I need to find someone who is willing and/or able to convert that money order into a $20 bill before I can buy my beer.
- 0xcde4c3db 3y ago
  Funnily enough, paper currency originated as something akin to money orders in the first place, and merchants started accepting them directly because they were much more convenient to transport and secure than the equivalent amount of coins. That's why the formal term for paper money is "banknotes".
- bonzini 3y ago
  But money orders can be treated as fiat if enough people agree to do it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniassegno https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniassegno
  - culturestate 3y ago
    I mean so can, like, grams of lead but that’s not really the discussion we’re having at this moment.
pc86 3y ago
What do you think a money order is?

Aaargh20318 3y ago

> Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible; it's quite common for people to be ineligible for a bank account under random (but common) circumstances. Not in the Netherlands. Any adult (18 or older) resident of the EU has the right to a bank account, by law. > an interesting loop you can get into is that you need to pay a utility bill in order to get a bank account, yet you can't pay a utility bill without a bank account. Why would you need to pay a utility bill to get a bank account? Those two things are completely unrelated. All you need is a valid ID (either ID card, passport or drivers license) and you are required to have that anyway.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
Surely an ID isn't required, it's just that most have one anyway.
SergeAx 3y ago
> Not in the Netherlands. Any adult (18 or older) resident of the EU has the right to a bank account, by law. For immigrants or foreign workers a process of getting EU residence status may take months and sometimes require an EU bank account, so it may become an infinite loop. We have to take worst renting deals in order to get required papers, for example.
dijit 3y ago
You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID. A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license. (for example: I didn't when I got my first bank account). My first bank account was a deal my mother made with the bank where she acted as guarantor. having a right to a thing is not the same as actually getting it; there is a lot of anti-fraud legislation that exists and must be complied with. The bank isn't just going to fully open an account with nothing but an ID. I can say that with absolute confidence after working in financial services (albeit briefly).
- ghaff 3y ago
  When I got a RealID-compliant driver's license a few years ago in my state in the US, an existing driver's license and passport were not sufficient. I needed some document to server as proof of my current address, such as a utility bill. I don't remember what all the options were but, yes, some people--including kids getting their first driver's license or people sharing an apartment who don't have their name on a lease--can run into issues.

NorwegianDude 3y ago

> Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible If you have a way to prove your ID(which basically everyone do in Norway) then bank accounts are very accessible and free. I don't know how many banks I have accounts at, but it's more than 15, and all you need is your ID and a couple of minutes to create an account.

RMPR 3y ago
> If you have a way to prove your ID(which basically everyone do in Norway) After going through the process of moving to Norway, I can say that unfortunately things are not that straightforward for foreigners. Even after getting your work permit, getting a personnummer can take up to several months after moving, not to mention getting an appointment with UDI can also take up to several months (in the meantime you'll feel like a lesser member of society, basic things like getting a library card are not accessible without it). After all there's a reason why this kind of service exist https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mpr_sua-techfasttrack-oslo-activity-7097341094467678208-UZCm https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mpr_sua-techfasttrack-oslo-ac... > then bank accounts are very accessible and free. I don't know how many banks I have accounts at, but it's more than 15, and all you need is your ID and a couple of minutes to create an account. This only works when you already have a BankID. It takes at least 1 month to open your first account. Granted after that, everything is smooth, but oh boy how much time does it take.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  Where is your home country? Is the situation better or worse?
dijit 3y ago
Depends on country a lot; in the Scandinavian countries there's a central identification database which links your entire identity including the registered address. However, if I'm not from Norway/Sweden/Denmark then I'm not in that system yet.
ericfrazier 3y ago
ID and a decent credit report. I have been through times in my life where banks wouldn't give my spouse an account at all. No bank in Oregon or credit union would give her an account. To this day she still hasn't had a bank account in the last seven years. I can't even get a card in their name.