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> I am confused by your post. What are some good reasons to allow cash payments above 3000 EUR? Privacy would be the biggest and most important reason and prob

> I am confused by your post. What are some good reasons to allow cash payments above 3000 EUR? Privacy would be the biggest and most important reason and probably enough to end the conversation right here. But we can also include - ease of payment. Count out money and you're done. - vendor gets their money immediately, no 5 day hold like there could be on a check or money transfer -

derfniw 3y ago
At least in NL there is no such thing as a 5 day hold on a transfer. Typically these are instant, at worst next business day, and if you use something like "payment request" or "tikkie" all it involves is sending the buyer a link or posting a QR code somewhere to allow them to send money directly, instantly, to your account. No chance of making errors in the bank nr, you can pre-specify the required amount in the request. No chance of making an error counting out 3K or more in cash notes. Within the NL banking/payment landscape I'd argue that large cash transactions are more bothersome for everyone involved. (well, unless involving a bank is bothersome to either of the parties, but if that is the case we're probably entering "dubious transaction" or "dubiously sourced money" territory..)
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  "Next business day" is a huge amount of time relative to the "instantly" that the value changes hands in a cash transaction. Cash also eliminates any need for prying into the background of the buyer: Their proof of ability to pay and payment itself is the stack of cash they have in their hand. If the government wants to eliminate the requirement of accepting large amounts of cash, I can see that. If you're not equipped to handle being paid in a large cash sum, it can definitely be inconvenient. But making the exchange of large sums of cash between two consenting parties illegal is bold-faced tyranny.
- frumper 3y ago
  What about clawbacks? If someone uses a stolen account to pay me, can that bank get the money back after I've sold the goods?
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    Any highly advanced economy: yes, there will be fraud protection built into the system. Do you live in a place where this is not true?
    - frumper 3y ago
      And that’s the point. If I sell you my used car and find out you paid with stolen funds, I’m not going to get cash clawed back, where I could realistically be out my car and money if someone used a digital payment.
- tekknik 3y ago
  How about handling a large transaction without internet access? Say you want to transact in the middle of space. What now? Wait until you get back to some connection? As silly as it sounds, this system is not scalable.
  - derfniw 3y ago
    The fact that it does not scale into a far far future where more than 0.00000000125% of the humans is in orbit/space does not mean that it is not a good system for today & the upcoming decades.
    - tekknik 3y ago
      Sure, by todays standards. Let’s see how well your comment ages with at least 3 different companies pursuing consumer space travel.
NorwegianDude 3y ago
Ease of payment? Paying with a card is much simpler and faster. Take your card, phone or watch and hold it to the terminal for one second and you're done. It's not normal for payouts to take 5 days. In Norway it's the next day.
- chollida1 3y ago
  I was assuming payment for things like contractors or furnace repair that don't walk around with visa terminals. I agree that in a grocery store, it is far easier to pay with a card.
  - piva00 3y ago
    That's done through a SEPA transfer that shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to complete, last time I paid a contractor more than 4k€ it was in their account in seconds.
  - NorwegianDude 3y ago
    But people usually do have a terminal to accept payment. If not, they usually just send you an invoice. Makes bookkeeping much simpler for the business too. I have only paid in-person using NFC for nearly 10 years in Norway. I understand that the situation is different other places, but I'm literally not sure what our physical currency looks like now. However, I walked into a store in Spain yesterday that was cash only. Now I have cash in EUR that I not only overpaid insanely for because of the ATM , but I also can't use it in Norway. If cash was no longer an option then it would be much simpler and cheaper as my bank does the currency exchange for me. Digital payments are probably better in every way when it's the norm, except for privacy, and that's a big one.
    - chollida1 3y ago
      > ow I have cash in EUR that I not only overpaid insanely for because of the ATM , but I also can't use it in Norway Ha, well you'll have a heart attack when you look at your visa statement and realized that visa can charge even worse rates for currency conversion than ATM's do. Plus visa charges the vendor a fee( around 2ish%) that has to be born by the buyer and seller. Cash doesn't have this built in tax. Now I'll admit I have no idea bout Norway, so maybe you have some special way to pay with zero transaction fees and have the cash show up instantly with no holds on the payment ever, if so, good for you guys.
m0ped 3y ago
Another thing that can be added is that you aren't paying VISA 2% of the purchase when paying in cash.

derfniw 3y ago

At least in NL there is no such thing as a 5 day hold on a transfer. Typically these are instant, at worst next business day, and if you use something like "payment request" or "tikkie" all it involves is sending the buyer a link or posting a QR code somewhere to allow them to send money directly, instantly, to your account. No chance of making errors in the bank nr, you can pre-specify the required amount in the request. No chance of making an error counting out 3K or more in cash notes. Within the NL banking/payment landscape I'd argue that large cash transactions are more bothersome for everyone involved. (well, unless involving a bank is bothersome to either of the parties, but if that is the case we're probably entering "dubious transaction" or "dubiously sourced money" territory..)

OkayPhysicist 3y ago
"Next business day" is a huge amount of time relative to the "instantly" that the value changes hands in a cash transaction. Cash also eliminates any need for prying into the background of the buyer: Their proof of ability to pay and payment itself is the stack of cash they have in their hand. If the government wants to eliminate the requirement of accepting large amounts of cash, I can see that. If you're not equipped to handle being paid in a large cash sum, it can definitely be inconvenient. But making the exchange of large sums of cash between two consenting parties illegal is bold-faced tyranny.
frumper 3y ago
What about clawbacks? If someone uses a stolen account to pay me, can that bank get the money back after I've sold the goods?
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  Any highly advanced economy: yes, there will be fraud protection built into the system. Do you live in a place where this is not true?
  - frumper 3y ago
    And that’s the point. If I sell you my used car and find out you paid with stolen funds, I’m not going to get cash clawed back, where I could realistically be out my car and money if someone used a digital payment.
tekknik 3y ago
How about handling a large transaction without internet access? Say you want to transact in the middle of space. What now? Wait until you get back to some connection? As silly as it sounds, this system is not scalable.
- derfniw 3y ago
  The fact that it does not scale into a far far future where more than 0.00000000125% of the humans is in orbit/space does not mean that it is not a good system for today & the upcoming decades.
  - tekknik 3y ago
    Sure, by todays standards. Let’s see how well your comment ages with at least 3 different companies pursuing consumer space travel.

NorwegianDude 3y ago

Ease of payment? Paying with a card is much simpler and faster. Take your card, phone or watch and hold it to the terminal for one second and you're done. It's not normal for payouts to take 5 days. In Norway it's the next day.

chollida1 3y ago
I was assuming payment for things like contractors or furnace repair that don't walk around with visa terminals. I agree that in a grocery store, it is far easier to pay with a card.
- piva00 3y ago
  That's done through a SEPA transfer that shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to complete, last time I paid a contractor more than 4k€ it was in their account in seconds.
- NorwegianDude 3y ago
  But people usually do have a terminal to accept payment. If not, they usually just send you an invoice. Makes bookkeeping much simpler for the business too. I have only paid in-person using NFC for nearly 10 years in Norway. I understand that the situation is different other places, but I'm literally not sure what our physical currency looks like now. However, I walked into a store in Spain yesterday that was cash only. Now I have cash in EUR that I not only overpaid insanely for because of the ATM , but I also can't use it in Norway. If cash was no longer an option then it would be much simpler and cheaper as my bank does the currency exchange for me. Digital payments are probably better in every way when it's the norm, except for privacy, and that's a big one.
  - chollida1 3y ago
    > ow I have cash in EUR that I not only overpaid insanely for because of the ATM , but I also can't use it in Norway Ha, well you'll have a heart attack when you look at your visa statement and realized that visa can charge even worse rates for currency conversion than ATM's do. Plus visa charges the vendor a fee( around 2ish%) that has to be born by the buyer and seller. Cash doesn't have this built in tax. Now I'll admit I have no idea bout Norway, so maybe you have some special way to pay with zero transaction fees and have the cash show up instantly with no holds on the payment ever, if so, good for you guys.

m0ped 3y ago

Another thing that can be added is that you aren't paying VISA 2% of the purchase when paying in cash.