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I can acknowledge a man's shortcomings without discounting his positive contributions (which are manifold). Without him, there would be zero EV market. Without

I can acknowledge a man's shortcomings without discounting his positive contributions (which are manifold). Without him, there would be zero EV market. Without him, US space dominance would continue to atrophy into oblivion. Without him, there would be no reusable space launch vehicles (and all of the opportunities that accompany it) in existence. But I will grant that the Twitter acquisition was a pretty clear unforced error.

3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
The BEV market was already picking up in Asia before Tesla rose to prominence. And Asia prefers small electric cars for the city, and many other small electric vehicles like electric scooters, bikes, motorcycles, which make a lot more sense than the electric sedans, SUVs and trucks, that Tesla is offering. For bigger cars, a hybrid is much superior from engineering perspective with the state of current tech, it uses a lot less Lithium, and still promotes the development of a charging network that could then charge small EVs. And for even bigger vehicles, for industrial transport and public transport, we've had the electric train, tram, subway and trolleybus for decades. Decades. All running without batteries, which vastly reduces their weight and improves their safety and performance. Tesla's contribution to the EV market are overblown. It's by far the most well known EV brand in the West, and it did open many people minds' to the prospect of getting an EV. But Tesla is offering product quality of continuous decline, and is in the process of being replaced by the very competitors in Asia I referred to earlier, who have been in this game for much longer than Tesla, and without peddling vaporware like the always broken FSD. Not to mention Optimus. Tesla seems like they invented something. And changed the world. But they were just a huge distraction that sucked up the capital for other startups coming up with similar products, at a similar time, due to Elon Musk's empty promises and boatsmanship. Tesla is a distraction and will be forgotten, except for two things: their charging plug standard, and their supercharger network. Those will likely stick around. Shame really, because I really liked the Tesla brand, and I really like the look of the Model 3/Y (not the interior nor the quality, but it's a nice looking car, simple, elegant). Unfortunately Tesla is currently in decay and they're putting up increasingly weirder rabbits from their hat to hide that fact (and why the CFO left).
- jwestbury 3y ago
  Perhaps worth noting, too, that Tesla have gone from >80% BEV market share in the US in 2020 to (probably) below 50% right now. (Probably because they were at just over 50% in January, and analyst predictions had them dropping below 50% within months.) They're still absolutely dominant in the US, but losing ground fast. And, anecdotally, their BEV market share in Europe (based on what I see on the road and whilst shopping for used cars) is much lower. In the UK, I believe it's below 20%.
  - 0xbadc0de5 3y ago
    This is primarily a reflection of new manufacturers entering the market rather than Tesla declining in quality. It's worth noting that Musk is on record saying that Tesla's mission is to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles - regardless of who is selling them, be it Tesla or another automaker.
    - 3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
      Mission successful. They can dissolve now.
      - 0xbadc0de5 3y ago
        If you think Tesla's existence is a net-negative because you don't agree with everything Musk does, you've lost the plot. They're still driving innovation in this space, still employing tens of thousands of people, still providing shareholder value and still making cars people want to own.
        3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
        I don’t know why you need to confabulate what I think. If you want to know, I’m right here you can ask me.
- 0xbadc0de5 3y ago
  Tesla's mission was never to sell the most electric cars or to dominate the EV market. Their mission was to make a competitive and desirable BEV that normal people would want to own. To make the BEV market a viable thing. Even more - to not just make a great BEV, but to make a great car. And to that extent, I'd say they succeeded. Hybrids are not superior in any way. Indeed they are actually inferior in just about every way - cost, performance, maintenance / reliability, emissions. Which hybrid beats a Model 3/Y? Referring to electric trains, trams and subways is also a red herring. This discussion is about Tesla's contribution to electric cars. Tesla's quality is only suffering in the eyes of its most vocal critics - who often have a vested interest in stirring up controversy. I've owned both a Model S and a Model X - both are significantly more reliable (and better performing) than any other car I've ever owned. Observing that Tesla was not immune from the global supply chain crisis caused by the lockdowns, or is having difficulty perfecting FSD, or is actively researching humanoid robotics (ie: diversifying) seems short-sighted. Would you prefer they make no attempt at innovation? Expecting perfection from Tesla, but excusing mediocrity from every other manufacturer is an unreasonable double-standard. (Although I would agree that their early marketing of FSD was overly optimistic and potentially reckless.) Nobody is claiming Tesla invented BEV's - that's a straw man. But they certainly did push the BEV market into the mainstream and drastically improve the technology. The fact that you can drive anywhere in the US and be within driving distance of a Supercharger is testament to that. Without Tesla leading the way, I think there's a strong argument to be made that there would still be no EV market in the US. And finally, Tesla is the first new US car manufacturer to arrive, and be competitive in the last century. I think that's an accomplishment in itself.

3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago

The BEV market was already picking up in Asia before Tesla rose to prominence. And Asia prefers small electric cars for the city, and many other small electric vehicles like electric scooters, bikes, motorcycles, which make a lot more sense than the electric sedans, SUVs and trucks, that Tesla is offering. For bigger cars, a hybrid is much superior from engineering perspective with the state of current tech, it uses a lot less Lithium, and still promotes the development of a charging network that could then charge small EVs. And for even bigger vehicles, for industrial transport and public transport, we've had the electric train, tram, subway and trolleybus for decades. Decades. All running without batteries, which vastly reduces their weight and improves their safety and performance. Tesla's contribution to the EV market are overblown. It's by far the most well known EV brand in the West, and it did open many people minds' to the prospect of getting an EV. But Tesla is offering product quality of continuous decline, and is in the process of being replaced by the very competitors in Asia I referred to earlier, who have been in this game for much longer than Tesla, and without peddling vaporware like the always broken FSD. Not to mention Optimus. Tesla seems like they invented something. And changed the world. But they were just a huge distraction that sucked up the capital for other startups coming up with similar products, at a similar time, due to Elon Musk's empty promises and boatsmanship. Tesla is a distraction and will be forgotten, except for two things: their charging plug standard, and their supercharger network. Those will likely stick around. Shame really, because I really liked the Tesla brand, and I really like the look of the Model 3/Y (not the interior nor the quality, but it's a nice looking car, simple, elegant). Unfortunately Tesla is currently in decay and they're putting up increasingly weirder rabbits from their hat to hide that fact (and why the CFO left).

jwestbury 3y ago
Perhaps worth noting, too, that Tesla have gone from >80% BEV market share in the US in 2020 to (probably) below 50% right now. (Probably because they were at just over 50% in January, and analyst predictions had them dropping below 50% within months.) They're still absolutely dominant in the US, but losing ground fast. And, anecdotally, their BEV market share in Europe (based on what I see on the road and whilst shopping for used cars) is much lower. In the UK, I believe it's below 20%.
- 0xbadc0de5 3y ago
  This is primarily a reflection of new manufacturers entering the market rather than Tesla declining in quality. It's worth noting that Musk is on record saying that Tesla's mission is to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles - regardless of who is selling them, be it Tesla or another automaker.
  - 3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
    Mission successful. They can dissolve now.
    - 0xbadc0de5 3y ago
      If you think Tesla's existence is a net-negative because you don't agree with everything Musk does, you've lost the plot. They're still driving innovation in this space, still employing tens of thousands of people, still providing shareholder value and still making cars people want to own.
      - 3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
        I don’t know why you need to confabulate what I think. If you want to know, I’m right here you can ask me.
0xbadc0de5 3y ago
Tesla's mission was never to sell the most electric cars or to dominate the EV market. Their mission was to make a competitive and desirable BEV that normal people would want to own. To make the BEV market a viable thing. Even more - to not just make a great BEV, but to make a great car. And to that extent, I'd say they succeeded. Hybrids are not superior in any way. Indeed they are actually inferior in just about every way - cost, performance, maintenance / reliability, emissions. Which hybrid beats a Model 3/Y? Referring to electric trains, trams and subways is also a red herring. This discussion is about Tesla's contribution to electric cars. Tesla's quality is only suffering in the eyes of its most vocal critics - who often have a vested interest in stirring up controversy. I've owned both a Model S and a Model X - both are significantly more reliable (and better performing) than any other car I've ever owned. Observing that Tesla was not immune from the global supply chain crisis caused by the lockdowns, or is having difficulty perfecting FSD, or is actively researching humanoid robotics (ie: diversifying) seems short-sighted. Would you prefer they make no attempt at innovation? Expecting perfection from Tesla, but excusing mediocrity from every other manufacturer is an unreasonable double-standard. (Although I would agree that their early marketing of FSD was overly optimistic and potentially reckless.) Nobody is claiming Tesla invented BEV's - that's a straw man. But they certainly did push the BEV market into the mainstream and drastically improve the technology. The fact that you can drive anywhere in the US and be within driving distance of a Supercharger is testament to that. Without Tesla leading the way, I think there's a strong argument to be made that there would still be no EV market in the US. And finally, Tesla is the first new US car manufacturer to arrive, and be competitive in the last century. I think that's an accomplishment in itself.