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I think full time work in the office is 100% dead and buried. It's never coming back for people who have enough skills to leverage that kind of arrangement. I

I think full time work in the office is 100% dead and buried. It's never coming back for people who have enough skills to leverage that kind of arrangement. I think the first place we need to start is there. Most of us are NEVER going back to 5 days a week in the office. However, most of the folks complaining about return to work I've noticed are senior people who have enough skills to perform their job and don't require constant attention. What I've noticed is these kinds of workers absolutely thrive remotely, however younger employees greatly benefit from in person learning and mentoring. I've personally worked with many junior engineers over the years and it's really hard to mentor someone over a computer screen. It's definitely possible, but being able sit down informally and talk about something that's hard to understand, or unclear is much harder remotely. I haven't figured out a virtual way to give an intern a small assignment and determine if they're struggling remotely (yet) short of doing peer programming. If I ask an intern to fix a bug that's 2 lines of code and I hear furious typing over the walls for extended periods of time, that's probably a good time to ask how it's going and offer some help. I don't have the answers here but I don't think it's fair to be so dismissive of face to face time in the office.

lamontcg 3y ago
> I've personally worked with many junior engineers over the years and it's really hard to mentor someone over a computer screen. It's definitely possible, but being able sit down informally and talk about something that's hard to understand, or unclear is much harder remotely. I've done this a bunch over zoom. > I haven't figured out a virtual way to give an intern a small assignment and determine if they're struggling remotely (yet) short of doing peer programming. Ask them in standups? Have an "open door" policy towards them pinging you to hop on a zoom? You also probably don't need to be hovering over them making certain that they're never struggling, that's a form of micro management. Gotta let the kids fight with problems for awhile before jumping in and fixing it for them[*]. [*] and really don't fix it for them, teach them how to fix it. poor phrasing.
pseudalopex 3y ago
> return to work Return to office.
gilbetron 3y ago
> I've personally worked with many junior engineers over the years and it's really hard to mentor someone over a computer screen. It's definitely possible, but being able sit down informally and talk about something that's hard to understand, or unclear is much harder remotely. The senior+ I work with are nearly unanimous in disagreement and find remote mentoring as easy or easier than in-person. Pairing is easier on zoom, it loses the awkward personal space issues, it can be recorded, it can happen quicker and easier, and in general just works (a bit) better than in-person. Socially, I definitely except the argument that in-office is better for young people. I can't imagine 25 year old me sitting by myself working from home, I would've turned into a very different person.
voisin 3y ago
> What I've noticed is these kinds of workers absolutely thrive remotely Thriving individually does not equate (necessarily) to thriving as a team, nor thriving as an organization. I see on HN too many people taking about how they personally perform better, which is (a) difficult to objectively self assess given all the biases involved and (b) ignores that the team might perform poorer or the organization might, due to a variety of frictions added by being remote. It isn’t as black and white as some people like to claim. Edit: I love how I am being downvoted on something as uncontroversial as stating that there’s more nuance than the current debate seems to devolve into on HN. Shameful.
po8tin 3y ago
“…however younger employees greatly benefit from in person learning and mentoring.” Doesn’t require a permanent office. Temp cowork spaces or bundling working with a career mentor in the final stretch of college are two options I just thought of laying in bed while also thinking about making coffee. More of the same is not an option for all the cost-benefit analysis that’s come up before. Prior to world war industrialization, 90% of workers were independent. Post-war office life was a result of wartime solutions to logistics. A statistical outlier in human history.
- davewritescode 3y ago
  We don't have to do things exactly the same way we always did and offices will change, my point is only that a lot of these types of articles are outright dismissive of regular, in person communication at all.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Prior to world war industrialization, 90% of workers were independent. If you change that to “prior to the First Industrial Revolution”, and by “independent” you mean “worked on family or village farms”, sure, that's approximately right. Just before even the first world war, there is no sense where this is true, even loosely.
  - po8tin 3y ago
    Right, so, “prior to world war industrialization.” I know what I wrote. Have a good day!
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      The first world war was almost a half century after the end of the first industrial revolution and the usual marker of the end of the second. Neither revolution’s work pattern changes were driven primarily by military logistics. (OTOH, changes in the patterns of warfare were driven by the same forces as the work pattern changes.) So, no, your comment about 90% of workers being independent before “world war industrialization” is way off base.

lamontcg 3y ago

> I've personally worked with many junior engineers over the years and it's really hard to mentor someone over a computer screen. It's definitely possible, but being able sit down informally and talk about something that's hard to understand, or unclear is much harder remotely. I've done this a bunch over zoom. > I haven't figured out a virtual way to give an intern a small assignment and determine if they're struggling remotely (yet) short of doing peer programming. Ask them in standups? Have an "open door" policy towards them pinging you to hop on a zoom? You also probably don't need to be hovering over them making certain that they're never struggling, that's a form of micro management. Gotta let the kids fight with problems for awhile before jumping in and fixing it for them[*]. [*] and really don't fix it for them, teach them how to fix it. poor phrasing.

pseudalopex 3y ago

> return to work Return to office.

gilbetron 3y ago

> I've personally worked with many junior engineers over the years and it's really hard to mentor someone over a computer screen. It's definitely possible, but being able sit down informally and talk about something that's hard to understand, or unclear is much harder remotely. The senior+ I work with are nearly unanimous in disagreement and find remote mentoring as easy or easier than in-person. Pairing is easier on zoom, it loses the awkward personal space issues, it can be recorded, it can happen quicker and easier, and in general just works (a bit) better than in-person. Socially, I definitely except the argument that in-office is better for young people. I can't imagine 25 year old me sitting by myself working from home, I would've turned into a very different person.

voisin 3y ago

> What I've noticed is these kinds of workers absolutely thrive remotely Thriving individually does not equate (necessarily) to thriving as a team, nor thriving as an organization. I see on HN too many people taking about how they personally perform better, which is (a) difficult to objectively self assess given all the biases involved and (b) ignores that the team might perform poorer or the organization might, due to a variety of frictions added by being remote. It isn’t as black and white as some people like to claim. Edit: I love how I am being downvoted on something as uncontroversial as stating that there’s more nuance than the current debate seems to devolve into on HN. Shameful.

po8tin 3y ago

“…however younger employees greatly benefit from in person learning and mentoring.” Doesn’t require a permanent office. Temp cowork spaces or bundling working with a career mentor in the final stretch of college are two options I just thought of laying in bed while also thinking about making coffee. More of the same is not an option for all the cost-benefit analysis that’s come up before. Prior to world war industrialization, 90% of workers were independent. Post-war office life was a result of wartime solutions to logistics. A statistical outlier in human history.

davewritescode 3y ago
We don't have to do things exactly the same way we always did and offices will change, my point is only that a lot of these types of articles are outright dismissive of regular, in person communication at all.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> Prior to world war industrialization, 90% of workers were independent. If you change that to “prior to the First Industrial Revolution”, and by “independent” you mean “worked on family or village farms”, sure, that's approximately right. Just before even the first world war, there is no sense where this is true, even loosely.
- po8tin 3y ago
  Right, so, “prior to world war industrialization.” I know what I wrote. Have a good day!
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    The first world war was almost a half century after the end of the first industrial revolution and the usual marker of the end of the second. Neither revolution’s work pattern changes were driven primarily by military logistics. (OTOH, changes in the patterns of warfare were driven by the same forces as the work pattern changes.) So, no, your comment about 90% of workers being independent before “world war industrialization” is way off base.