6 ms·

If it has two wheels ("bicycle") and a motor ("motorized bicycle") then it is a "motorcycle". Declining to call it a motorcycle because the motor is small rela

If it has two wheels ("bicycle") and a motor ("motorized bicycle") then it is a "motorcycle". Declining to call it a motorcycle because the motor is small relative to other motorcycles is little more than snobbery, and it's a snobbery that discourages people from buying a (larger) motorcycle that fits their needs, because of a historic arbitrary distinction between small and large motorcycles that require separate licensing for large motorcycles; a distinction that should be eliminated either by applying licensing requirements uniformly to all motorcycles or uniformly eliminating the licensing requirements from all motorcycles.

veave 3y ago
It's not snobbery, a cheap scooter like the one in that ad makes it much harder to kill yourself than a real motorcycle, which is why there is a different licence required. Here, a scooter like that you can't even drive in a highway - restricting its use to a city makes it much safer.
- jpc0 3y ago
  I would love to see accident statistics that supports that claim. Last time I looked at it small bikes, generally used by delivery drivers to be fair, vastly overshadowed any other motorcycle accidents. On the same note death rates per vehicle on the road was lower for motorcycles than all other vehicle classes and a large portion of those deaths were passengers on a motorcycle and not the driver. This was all from the mid 2010s though. The statistics showed more to me that wearing correct protection equipment significantly reduced your chance of dieing, the displacement of the engine or even the type of motorcycle had some impact but definitely wasn't a major factor.
  - gog 3y ago
    Are you sure that the statistics you looked into take into account number of vehicle on the road and miles/minutes traveled for each category? Smaller bikes/scooters (you can drive them with a car license in my country if they are under 50cc) have a max top speed of 50km/h (31mph). On the other hand, one of the most popular motorcycles (Yamaha MT-07) does 0-100km/h (0-60 mph) in under 4 seconds and can reach speeds of over 130 miles per hour. There is a lot that can go wrong if you are not careful. Also, it is almost twice as heavy.
- solatic 3y ago
  That perspective, that scooters are somehow safer, isn't borne out in the data. In city after city we see mounting injuries and deaths, as usage and popularity increase. Consider https://news.sky.com/story/e-scooter-deaths-triple-this-year-new-figures-show-as-campaigners-call-for-government-to-pause-trials-12754673 https://news.sky.com/story/e-scooter-deaths-triple-this-year... and https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-scooter-crazed-tel-aviv-70-of-injured-rode-helmet-less-20-were-drunk/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-scooter-crazed-tel-aviv-70-... (light Googling). If one wishes to take the perspective that licensure helps prevent injuries and death, then apply the licensure requirements to these lighter vehicles too. If one prefers the perspective that all such transport is inherently risky, and thus prioritize personal responsibility and assumption of risk, then let's get rid of the licensure requirements, which will surely help get more people out of their 4-wheelers, with knock-on improvements for the environment, traffic congestion, and parking. My problem is with the arbitrary distinction in the middle.
  - veave 3y ago
    Those aren't the scooters we are talking about in this context. This is a scooter: https://motosnuevas.formulamoto.es/galeria/4671/Vespa_Primavera_125_ABS_4671.jpg https://motosnuevas.formulamoto.es/galeria/4671/Vespa_Primav... They require a licence to drive, but the licence tests aren't as thorough as the tests to drive a motorcycle.
michaelt 3y ago
> Declining to call it a motorcycle because the motor is small relative to other motorcycles is little more than snobbery, At least in my country, it's not a question of engine size but of having a step-through frame. A Vespa with a 300cc engine would usually be called a motor scooter, a CB125R with a 125cc engine is a motorbike. Of course, my country's parlance is wildly inconsistent. Some motor scooters are also known as 'mopeds' despite not having pedals. E-bikes have motors and pedals, and yet aren't called mopeds or motorbikes. The tax authority considers motor scooters to be motorbikes. Certain motorbike tax bands call the vehicle a 'bicycle'. E-scooters are scooters with motors, yet aren't called motor scooters. 'Bikers' refers to motorcyclists, and 'cyclists' to bicycle riders. And so on.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
okokwhatever 3y ago
[flagged]
devnullbrain 3y ago
The UK DVLA must be snobs too, I can ride the moped in the video with my car licence but not a motorbike. And a high-powered one - which you declined to mention - is another licence again.
coldtea 3y ago
>because of a historic arbitrary distinction between small and large motorcycles that require separate licensing for large motorcycles I don't think it's in any way arbitrary. There are speed, engine, and other differences, affecting skill levels required and potential lethality...
- solatic 3y ago
  > skill levels required and potential lethality Why does that matter to the government? It requires skill to use a knife, and if it's mishandled it can cause severe bodily harm; should we require people to get a license to use a knife in their own kitchen? If it's because of the potential lethality to others, then surely we ought to require licensing for all motorbikes (including small motorbikes); what if a toddler wanders into the bike lane where these small-engine motorbikes are permitted? > speed Non-motorized cyclists can hit speeds of over 120 km/h (admittedly an extreme case, but still): https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/122kph-jeremy-roy-went-even-faster-tour-de-france-stage-nine-258371 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/122... . Should we require licensing for non-motorized bicycles simply because the vehicle has the potential to hit a certain speed? Wouldn't it then make more sense to require licensure for anyone who travels faster than a certain speed, and for any two-wheeled vehicle to be registered and plated? Again I concede that there are naturally differences between large- and small-engine motorcycles. My point is that regardless of which rubric you choose, whether it's safety, skill, whatever, the decision that a mechanical engine requires licensure but an electric one does not, or 125cc motorcycles require licensure but "electric bicycles" do not, wherever that line is drawn is there for historical reasons only, not because of the safety or skill rubric, and therefore is arbitrary, therefore is unjust, therefore should be reformed to be more consistent than just whatever we have today due to historical accident.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >Why does that matter to the government? It doesn't. It matters to the law, which is a different thing from the government. And it matters because it matters to society whether someone with insufficient training and testing rides a huge motorcycle, or a truck, or whatever. Especially something like a sports motorcycle which needs more skill than an average car, and is much easier to slip (as accidents stats tell). >Non-motorized cyclists can hit speeds of over 120 km/h Rarely and in extreme conditions. Big motorcycles can do it trivially. The world cycle record is 130 km/h, under very special circumstances and for just 200m or so. The highest end of the speed pros usually achieve is (according to wiki) around 70 km/h, quite less than 120 km/h. Not to mention a motorcycle (especially the kind more heavily regulated) has much more weight than a bike, and thus much more momentum even for the same speed. >It requires skill to use a knife, and if it's mishandled it can cause severe bodily harm; should we require people to get a license to use a knife in their own kitchen? I'm pretty sure people are allowed to ride any size of motorcycle in their own kitches or their backyard even. It's when they ride them on the road, and this can kill others, that it gets to be a concern for the law. The same holds for knives btw. Carrying a knife in the streets in many jurisdictions is considered an offense, similar to carrying a gun. It sure is in mine. And in general, for all over the US I read "(...) there are often limits on knives or bladed weapons that may be carried. Most states regulate an individual’s ability to carry a knife based on the following characteristics of the knife itself: The type of knife, including the purpose in which it is typically used for; (...) The length of the blade.".
dmonitor 3y ago
it has two wheels it has a motor behold: a motorcycle https://productnotes.com/uploads/default/optimized/2X/5/531362f9384dc2ac9cd5dfd153f4d712f9c59e2b_2_999x750.jpeg https://productnotes.com/uploads/default/optimized/2X/5/5313...
- ashbee 3y ago
  That thing clearly has _three_ wheels, making it a motor trike. This is a motorcycle: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpoydU3hHy020_rPkszMz3SfN6J6nzQ-HUWA&usqp=CAU https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpoydU...
- solatic 3y ago
  I'll admit, I laughed :D

veave 3y ago

It's not snobbery, a cheap scooter like the one in that ad makes it much harder to kill yourself than a real motorcycle, which is why there is a different licence required. Here, a scooter like that you can't even drive in a highway - restricting its use to a city makes it much safer.

jpc0 3y ago
I would love to see accident statistics that supports that claim. Last time I looked at it small bikes, generally used by delivery drivers to be fair, vastly overshadowed any other motorcycle accidents. On the same note death rates per vehicle on the road was lower for motorcycles than all other vehicle classes and a large portion of those deaths were passengers on a motorcycle and not the driver. This was all from the mid 2010s though. The statistics showed more to me that wearing correct protection equipment significantly reduced your chance of dieing, the displacement of the engine or even the type of motorcycle had some impact but definitely wasn't a major factor.
- gog 3y ago
  Are you sure that the statistics you looked into take into account number of vehicle on the road and miles/minutes traveled for each category? Smaller bikes/scooters (you can drive them with a car license in my country if they are under 50cc) have a max top speed of 50km/h (31mph). On the other hand, one of the most popular motorcycles (Yamaha MT-07) does 0-100km/h (0-60 mph) in under 4 seconds and can reach speeds of over 130 miles per hour. There is a lot that can go wrong if you are not careful. Also, it is almost twice as heavy.
solatic 3y ago
That perspective, that scooters are somehow safer, isn't borne out in the data. In city after city we see mounting injuries and deaths, as usage and popularity increase. Consider https://news.sky.com/story/e-scooter-deaths-triple-this-year-new-figures-show-as-campaigners-call-for-government-to-pause-trials-12754673 https://news.sky.com/story/e-scooter-deaths-triple-this-year... and https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-scooter-crazed-tel-aviv-70-of-injured-rode-helmet-less-20-were-drunk/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-scooter-crazed-tel-aviv-70-... (light Googling). If one wishes to take the perspective that licensure helps prevent injuries and death, then apply the licensure requirements to these lighter vehicles too. If one prefers the perspective that all such transport is inherently risky, and thus prioritize personal responsibility and assumption of risk, then let's get rid of the licensure requirements, which will surely help get more people out of their 4-wheelers, with knock-on improvements for the environment, traffic congestion, and parking. My problem is with the arbitrary distinction in the middle.
- veave 3y ago
  Those aren't the scooters we are talking about in this context. This is a scooter: https://motosnuevas.formulamoto.es/galeria/4671/Vespa_Primavera_125_ABS_4671.jpg https://motosnuevas.formulamoto.es/galeria/4671/Vespa_Primav... They require a licence to drive, but the licence tests aren't as thorough as the tests to drive a motorcycle.

michaelt 3y ago

> Declining to call it a motorcycle because the motor is small relative to other motorcycles is little more than snobbery, At least in my country, it's not a question of engine size but of having a step-through frame. A Vespa with a 300cc engine would usually be called a motor scooter, a CB125R with a 125cc engine is a motorbike. Of course, my country's parlance is wildly inconsistent. Some motor scooters are also known as 'mopeds' despite not having pedals. E-bikes have motors and pedals, and yet aren't called mopeds or motorbikes. The tax authority considers motor scooters to be motorbikes. Certain motorbike tax bands call the vehicle a 'bicycle'. E-scooters are scooters with motors, yet aren't called motor scooters. 'Bikers' refers to motorcyclists, and 'cyclists' to bicycle riders. And so on.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

okokwhatever 3y ago

[flagged]

devnullbrain 3y ago

The UK DVLA must be snobs too, I can ride the moped in the video with my car licence but not a motorbike. And a high-powered one - which you declined to mention - is another licence again.

coldtea 3y ago

>because of a historic arbitrary distinction between small and large motorcycles that require separate licensing for large motorcycles I don't think it's in any way arbitrary. There are speed, engine, and other differences, affecting skill levels required and potential lethality...

solatic 3y ago
> skill levels required and potential lethality Why does that matter to the government? It requires skill to use a knife, and if it's mishandled it can cause severe bodily harm; should we require people to get a license to use a knife in their own kitchen? If it's because of the potential lethality to others, then surely we ought to require licensing for all motorbikes (including small motorbikes); what if a toddler wanders into the bike lane where these small-engine motorbikes are permitted? > speed Non-motorized cyclists can hit speeds of over 120 km/h (admittedly an extreme case, but still): https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/122kph-jeremy-roy-went-even-faster-tour-de-france-stage-nine-258371 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/122... . Should we require licensing for non-motorized bicycles simply because the vehicle has the potential to hit a certain speed? Wouldn't it then make more sense to require licensure for anyone who travels faster than a certain speed, and for any two-wheeled vehicle to be registered and plated? Again I concede that there are naturally differences between large- and small-engine motorcycles. My point is that regardless of which rubric you choose, whether it's safety, skill, whatever, the decision that a mechanical engine requires licensure but an electric one does not, or 125cc motorcycles require licensure but "electric bicycles" do not, wherever that line is drawn is there for historical reasons only, not because of the safety or skill rubric, and therefore is arbitrary, therefore is unjust, therefore should be reformed to be more consistent than just whatever we have today due to historical accident.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >Why does that matter to the government? It doesn't. It matters to the law, which is a different thing from the government. And it matters because it matters to society whether someone with insufficient training and testing rides a huge motorcycle, or a truck, or whatever. Especially something like a sports motorcycle which needs more skill than an average car, and is much easier to slip (as accidents stats tell). >Non-motorized cyclists can hit speeds of over 120 km/h Rarely and in extreme conditions. Big motorcycles can do it trivially. The world cycle record is 130 km/h, under very special circumstances and for just 200m or so. The highest end of the speed pros usually achieve is (according to wiki) around 70 km/h, quite less than 120 km/h. Not to mention a motorcycle (especially the kind more heavily regulated) has much more weight than a bike, and thus much more momentum even for the same speed. >It requires skill to use a knife, and if it's mishandled it can cause severe bodily harm; should we require people to get a license to use a knife in their own kitchen? I'm pretty sure people are allowed to ride any size of motorcycle in their own kitches or their backyard even. It's when they ride them on the road, and this can kill others, that it gets to be a concern for the law. The same holds for knives btw. Carrying a knife in the streets in many jurisdictions is considered an offense, similar to carrying a gun. It sure is in mine. And in general, for all over the US I read "(...) there are often limits on knives or bladed weapons that may be carried. Most states regulate an individual’s ability to carry a knife based on the following characteristics of the knife itself: The type of knife, including the purpose in which it is typically used for; (...) The length of the blade.".

dmonitor 3y ago

it has two wheels it has a motor behold: a motorcycle https://productnotes.com/uploads/default/optimized/2X/5/531362f9384dc2ac9cd5dfd153f4d712f9c59e2b_2_999x750.jpeg https://productnotes.com/uploads/default/optimized/2X/5/5313...

ashbee 3y ago
That thing clearly has _three_ wheels, making it a motor trike. This is a motorcycle: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpoydU3hHy020_rPkszMz3SfN6J6nzQ-HUWA&usqp=CAU https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpoydU...
solatic 3y ago
I'll admit, I laughed :D