8 ms·

My impression for the popularity of the 75% form factor is due to laptops and people being accustomed to never have used the "missing" keys in the first place.

My impression for the popularity of the 75% form factor is due to laptops and people being accustomed to never have used the "missing" keys in the first place. A tell-tale is that default layout even for thinkpads is to set the Fn row to media keys by default... An increasingly smaller number of people use them, despite being a row of freely remappable keys right _there_. What I've seen happen though is that especially on linux you need two-modifier combos (ctrl-shift/ctrl-alt) to perform what you could have done with a single Fn keystroke. Or burn a few extra keys and increase complexity with layers. I went this route a decade ago, and I'm not a fan personally. Removing the Fn row saves 2cm of vertical space from your desk. I see it as completely pointless, even if you never use the Fn keys. And I don't buy the "reduced finger travel" argument either. Holding the modifiers in weird positions to access an extra layer is usually worse than a more spacious keyboard where your hands can be kept further apart and require less chording. But yeah... I commented on another thread on keyboards, and the current keyboard craze is mostly about customization and looks, and very little about the actual typing experience IMHO (there are exceptions of course..).

ako 3y ago
Problem with the Fn keys is discoverability: i never remember which functionality is available on which key, and you have to remember different mappings for different apps. Actually thought Apple's solution for this, the touchbar, was pretty nice, sad that it failed...
Given_47 3y ago
> despite being a row of freely remappable keys right _there_. Lol right. And I add a shift layer to the fn row as well, to add more fn keys. Sadly a lot of apps won’t support fn20+ but u find more utility binding them to hand crafted actions anyway
hnlmorg 3y ago
I completely agree. I never understood this craze of removing keys. The number pad is another example of this. Typing numbers is massively more comfortable (and quicker too) on the number pad than it is with the row of numbers just below the F-keys. The amount of desk space people save is so negligible, particularly when people who buy these keyboards typically work in “paperless” offices, that I never understood the appeal. I guess it boils down to people wanting their keyboards to look pretty rather than being actually useful.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  For many people who rarely need to type numbers, the number pad is wasted space. If you're an accountant you probably want one. Maybe even a separate, dedicated one. I rarely type numbers and find that the "top row" number keys are adequate for when I need to.
- where-group-by 3y ago
  I got a keyboard without the numpad due to the looks, but after using it a few years the full sized ones feel too bulky. I have to either move the mouse much further to the right or have my arms bent to the left when typing. Neither of which feels comfortable. I'm sure I could switch back if I needed to, but that extra space is welcome. I agree entering numbers is better on a keypad though.
- eviks 3y ago
  Why would you move your hand to the numpad if you can use your orthostaggered "numpad" with a layer right where your hand already is on the alpha keys?
  - qwerty456127 3y ago
    As I already mentioned 4-5 times, one of the languages I use regularly reuses the number row for extra letters (and it isn't even enough for all of them). I have to hold Shift pressed to enter a number this way (using a keypad feels much better) or use CapsLock to enter a capital of such a letter.
    - eviks 3y ago
      My comment is about NOT using the number row, so your repetition is not a relevant response
  - hnlmorg 3y ago
    Because moving your hand is a one time effort vs moving it up and down the keyboard to enter those pesky 6 digit TOTP codes where the digits could be at opposite ends of the keyboard. Plus I’ve been using keyboards longer than a lot of (probably most) developers on here have been alive and I haven’t ever found using the number pad to be even remotely an effort.
qwerty456127 3y ago
Back in the days when first computer keyboards were invented 7-bit ASCII was enough for everybody, now as everyone everywhere uses Internet daily for all sorts of tasks we have Unicode. People don't need a keypad because they have the digits row. But there are languages (in Europe) which reuse the digits row for extra letters (which don't even fit there) so you have to press shift to enter a digit (yes, you can't enter such a letter in capital without using CapsLock), unless you have a kaypad. People don't need F-keys (so these can be reused for multimedia controls) because they are not techies. Insert for the same reason. People don't use Delete/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn because they are completely uneducated about the basics of using a computer and use mouse/touchpad, arrows and backspace instead. Believe it or not, I've met people who don't even know Ctrl+C/V (let alone Ctrl+X or Ctrl+Z) and would always use the right-click menu (which even requires an additional keyboard key to be held pressed on a Mac) to copy/paste anything. This said, compact keyboards target anglophone non-techie users (or hardcore VIM fans who have ways to do everything without leaving the home row).
- Symbiote 3y ago
  > But there are languages (in Europe) The languages appears to be Czech/Slovak. It would be more useful to mention this, than to repeat the basic point in four or five comments.
eviks 3y ago
> Holding the modifiers in weird positions to access an extra layer is usually worse What's weird about home row or thumb mods?

ako 3y ago

Problem with the Fn keys is discoverability: i never remember which functionality is available on which key, and you have to remember different mappings for different apps. Actually thought Apple's solution for this, the touchbar, was pretty nice, sad that it failed...

Given_47 3y ago

> despite being a row of freely remappable keys right _there_. Lol right. And I add a shift layer to the fn row as well, to add more fn keys. Sadly a lot of apps won’t support fn20+ but u find more utility binding them to hand crafted actions anyway

hnlmorg 3y ago

I completely agree. I never understood this craze of removing keys. The number pad is another example of this. Typing numbers is massively more comfortable (and quicker too) on the number pad than it is with the row of numbers just below the F-keys. The amount of desk space people save is so negligible, particularly when people who buy these keyboards typically work in “paperless” offices, that I never understood the appeal. I guess it boils down to people wanting their keyboards to look pretty rather than being actually useful.

SoftTalker 3y ago
For many people who rarely need to type numbers, the number pad is wasted space. If you're an accountant you probably want one. Maybe even a separate, dedicated one. I rarely type numbers and find that the "top row" number keys are adequate for when I need to.
where-group-by 3y ago
I got a keyboard without the numpad due to the looks, but after using it a few years the full sized ones feel too bulky. I have to either move the mouse much further to the right or have my arms bent to the left when typing. Neither of which feels comfortable. I'm sure I could switch back if I needed to, but that extra space is welcome. I agree entering numbers is better on a keypad though.
eviks 3y ago
Why would you move your hand to the numpad if you can use your orthostaggered "numpad" with a layer right where your hand already is on the alpha keys?
- qwerty456127 3y ago
  As I already mentioned 4-5 times, one of the languages I use regularly reuses the number row for extra letters (and it isn't even enough for all of them). I have to hold Shift pressed to enter a number this way (using a keypad feels much better) or use CapsLock to enter a capital of such a letter.
  - eviks 3y ago
    My comment is about NOT using the number row, so your repetition is not a relevant response
- hnlmorg 3y ago
  Because moving your hand is a one time effort vs moving it up and down the keyboard to enter those pesky 6 digit TOTP codes where the digits could be at opposite ends of the keyboard. Plus I’ve been using keyboards longer than a lot of (probably most) developers on here have been alive and I haven’t ever found using the number pad to be even remotely an effort.

qwerty456127 3y ago

Back in the days when first computer keyboards were invented 7-bit ASCII was enough for everybody, now as everyone everywhere uses Internet daily for all sorts of tasks we have Unicode. People don't need a keypad because they have the digits row. But there are languages (in Europe) which reuse the digits row for extra letters (which don't even fit there) so you have to press shift to enter a digit (yes, you can't enter such a letter in capital without using CapsLock), unless you have a kaypad. People don't need F-keys (so these can be reused for multimedia controls) because they are not techies. Insert for the same reason. People don't use Delete/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn because they are completely uneducated about the basics of using a computer and use mouse/touchpad, arrows and backspace instead. Believe it or not, I've met people who don't even know Ctrl+C/V (let alone Ctrl+X or Ctrl+Z) and would always use the right-click menu (which even requires an additional keyboard key to be held pressed on a Mac) to copy/paste anything. This said, compact keyboards target anglophone non-techie users (or hardcore VIM fans who have ways to do everything without leaving the home row).

Symbiote 3y ago
> But there are languages (in Europe) The languages appears to be Czech/Slovak. It would be more useful to mention this, than to repeat the basic point in four or five comments.

eviks 3y ago

> Holding the modifiers in weird positions to access an extra layer is usually worse What's weird about home row or thumb mods?