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> and we need to be more circumspect about who, and how many bees. Urban beekeepers in low-capacity areas will give up when their hobby colonies fail. Let the

> and we need to be more circumspect about who, and how many bees. Urban beekeepers in low-capacity areas will give up when their hobby colonies fail. Let them.

voisin 3y ago
That’s one approach. Or we could advocate for more pollinator friendly plantings on boulevards and the edges of parks, and advocate for the outright banning of pesticides/herbicides in parks and on lawns. I find it unconscionable that we have elevated green, non-native monoculture lawns to the highest order, allowing people to spray what they want and waste up to 75% of household water on irrigating their lawns for… the ego stroke of green lawns in August?
- cryptonector 3y ago
  I don't disagree with you, but that's not responsive to the statement I was responding to though, which was: > we need to be more circumspect about who, and how many bees.
tptacek 3y ago
In the US, urban beekeepers are harming native pollinators by keeping livestock bees --- all honeybees are livestock in the US, where they're invasive.
- kibwen 3y ago
  Honeybees aren't native to the US, but there are lots of native bee species. I see no reason to assume that every beekeeper is only in it for the honey.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    They're all keeping honeybees, which are competing with the native pollinators. (You can of course buy mason bee nests or whatever, but nobody calls you a beekeeper for doing that).
    - idlewords 3y ago
      We acknowledge that the land on which we pollinate is the traditional territory of the plasterer bee, the southeastern blueberry bee, and the ogallalla fruit bat. As we gather the nectar that sustains us all, we honor them and the wasp and placental mammal ancestors who have been stewards of this land for countless generations predating our arrival.
      - ggm 3y ago
        But who will speak for the Varroa mite?
      - tptacek 3y ago
        I am OK with beekeeping as long as beekeepers recite land acknowledgements to solitary bee species! I think you know my position on this already though: fuck bees. Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! (everybody else: if you live in a locale where honey bees are native, I'm not talking about your bees.)
        cryptonector 3y ago
        > Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! We're all invasive. And we've brought a ton of non-native species to all parts of the world over the millennia we've been doing this. I'm not sure what you propose we do now about that. You can't unbreak that egg. I could stop beekeeping, and it wouldn't make a difference. We could stop all commercial beekeeping and that would likely be an agricultural disaster for many crops. Given all of that, why should one not look into how best to "keep a bunch of non-native bugs"?
        Sprocklem 3y ago
        There is a balancing act here: while beekeeping does in many ways help support the population of non-native species, you are right in noting that a lot of eurasian plant species that we rely on need domestic bees – and honey bees, in particular – to produce our food. At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species – especially in the case of those eurasian plant species. It seems to me that honey bees must be kept in agricultural settings – and in that case, I hope that they are kept responsibly – but the urban beekeepers discussed upthread should, perhaps, put a larger part of their effort towards keeping native species. > We're all invasive. Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. We may have been when we first arrived – and many native species went extinct as a result – but humans have been a part of the local ecosystems for tens of thousands of years and – where I'm from in canada – have been here since the ice sheets receded and the local ecosystem began to evolve. We are far past the point of being an invasive species and have (had?) long been integrated into the ecosystems in question.
  - cryptonector 3y ago
    > I see no reason to assume that every beekeeper is only in it for the honey. Excluding commercial beekeeping operations, the profit motives that small operations and amateur beekeepers keep bees include: - for the honey (to sell it at a profit) - for the hives (to sell them at a profit) - for side-lines like queen rearing (to sell them at a profit) - for property tax breaks There are also reasons that have no profit motives. Some beekeepers do it to "save the bees", but the bees don't need saving. Others do it because it's fun (yes, it is fun!). Some might even do it because the hum of the bees is so relaxing, and some even believe that bee venom stings are therapeutic (I've heard this from some friends).
- cryptonector 3y ago
  I've seen more native pollinators when I've gone looking than honeybees. I can't tell you what that means. Maybe the native pollinators are eating the things that honeybees don't like that the native pollinators don't like either but it's all that's left. But in the hill country in Texas wet Springs produce endless fields of flowers for months. The flowers around my hives never seemed to be devoid of pollen or nectar (you can imagine that I go looking). I think there's enough forage, at least around here.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-problem-with-honey-bees/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-problem-with-...

> and we need to be more circumspect about who, and how many bees. Urban beekeepers in low-capacity areas will give up when their hobby colonies fail. Let them.

voisin 3y ago

That’s one approach. Or we could advocate for more pollinator friendly plantings on boulevards and the edges of parks, and advocate for the outright banning of pesticides/herbicides in parks and on lawns. I find it unconscionable that we have elevated green, non-native monoculture lawns to the highest order, allowing people to spray what they want and waste up to 75% of household water on irrigating their lawns for… the ego stroke of green lawns in August?

cryptonector 3y ago
I don't disagree with you, but that's not responsive to the statement I was responding to though, which was: > we need to be more circumspect about who, and how many bees.

tptacek 3y ago

In the US, urban beekeepers are harming native pollinators by keeping livestock bees --- all honeybees are livestock in the US, where they're invasive.

kibwen 3y ago
Honeybees aren't native to the US, but there are lots of native bee species. I see no reason to assume that every beekeeper is only in it for the honey.
- tptacek 3y ago
  They're all keeping honeybees, which are competing with the native pollinators. (You can of course buy mason bee nests or whatever, but nobody calls you a beekeeper for doing that).
  - idlewords 3y ago
    We acknowledge that the land on which we pollinate is the traditional territory of the plasterer bee, the southeastern blueberry bee, and the ogallalla fruit bat. As we gather the nectar that sustains us all, we honor them and the wasp and placental mammal ancestors who have been stewards of this land for countless generations predating our arrival.
    - ggm 3y ago
      But who will speak for the Varroa mite?
    - tptacek 3y ago
      I am OK with beekeeping as long as beekeepers recite land acknowledgements to solitary bee species! I think you know my position on this already though: fuck bees. Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! (everybody else: if you live in a locale where honey bees are native, I'm not talking about your bees.)
      - cryptonector 3y ago
        > Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about! We're all invasive. And we've brought a ton of non-native species to all parts of the world over the millennia we've been doing this. I'm not sure what you propose we do now about that. You can't unbreak that egg. I could stop beekeeping, and it wouldn't make a difference. We could stop all commercial beekeeping and that would likely be an agricultural disaster for many crops. Given all of that, why should one not look into how best to "keep a bunch of non-native bugs"?
        Sprocklem 3y ago
        There is a balancing act here: while beekeeping does in many ways help support the population of non-native species, you are right in noting that a lot of eurasian plant species that we rely on need domestic bees – and honey bees, in particular – to produce our food. At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species – especially in the case of those eurasian plant species. It seems to me that honey bees must be kept in agricultural settings – and in that case, I hope that they are kept responsibly – but the urban beekeepers discussed upthread should, perhaps, put a larger part of their effort towards keeping native species. > We're all invasive. Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. We may have been when we first arrived – and many native species went extinct as a result – but humans have been a part of the local ecosystems for tens of thousands of years and – where I'm from in canada – have been here since the ice sheets receded and the local ecosystem began to evolve. We are far past the point of being an invasive species and have (had?) long been integrated into the ecosystems in question.
- cryptonector 3y ago
  > I see no reason to assume that every beekeeper is only in it for the honey. Excluding commercial beekeeping operations, the profit motives that small operations and amateur beekeepers keep bees include: - for the honey (to sell it at a profit) - for the hives (to sell them at a profit) - for side-lines like queen rearing (to sell them at a profit) - for property tax breaks There are also reasons that have no profit motives. Some beekeepers do it to "save the bees", but the bees don't need saving. Others do it because it's fun (yes, it is fun!). Some might even do it because the hum of the bees is so relaxing, and some even believe that bee venom stings are therapeutic (I've heard this from some friends).
cryptonector 3y ago
I've seen more native pollinators when I've gone looking than honeybees. I can't tell you what that means. Maybe the native pollinators are eating the things that honeybees don't like that the native pollinators don't like either but it's all that's left. But in the hill country in Texas wet Springs produce endless fields of flowers for months. The flowers around my hives never seemed to be devoid of pollen or nectar (you can imagine that I go looking). I think there's enough forage, at least around here.
- tptacek 3y ago
  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-problem-with-honey-bees/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-problem-with-...