5 ms·

If productivity rises to an absurd degree, I think it makes sense to start having a citizen's wage / minimum guaranteed income: http://www.xamuel.com/ten-reason

by itmag 15y ago

If productivity rises to an absurd degree, I think it makes sense to start having a citizen's wage / minimum guaranteed income: http://www.xamuel.com/ten-reasons-for-guaranteed-minimum-income/ http://www.xamuel.com/ten-reasons-for-guaranteed-minimum-inc... Sure, a lot of people might just become layabouts doing nothing. But are they really doing much right now, by enduring crappy jobs that add marginal value? Other people might unlock vast reservoirs of creativity which would bring great positive externalities to society, if they didn't have to spend their productive hours on such a trite problem as survival.

GFischer 15y ago
My country, Uruguay, implemented something like that ("Plan de emergencia"). And I don't like the results. The problem is not that they're "doing nothing", it's that they're actively increasing their burden to the working society by having an unsustainable amount of children. They're also REJECTING job offers (80% of those getting the emergency wage). And many of those job offers were for a good wage by local standards. (spanish links) http://elobservador.com.uy/noticia/214462/el-80-de-la-poblacion-del-mides-rechazo-una-oferta-de-trabajo/ http://elobservador.com.uy/noticia/214462/el-80-de-la-poblac... http://www.mides.gub.uy/mides/text.jsp?contentid=14247&site=1&channel=mides http://www.mides.gub.uy/mides/text.jsp?contentid=14247&s... It may sound fascist, but I'd like people to be able to support themselves before having children. The idea of a citizen's wage sounds nice in theory, but implementation opens a big can of worms.
- Drbble 15y ago
  Easy fix (logically, that is. Politically, nothing is easy). Have a US style "earned income tax credit" or "civilian conservation corps" where for folks get paid to work, and the government creates (productive, civil engineering and janitorial type) work if there is not enough private sector work,
  - GFischer 15y ago
    Yes, I know it's a political problem not a logical one :( . There's plenty of work available, on the second link above, Alberto Iglesias, the president of the Farmer's federation acknowledged that (losing the wage if you get employed) makes it very difficult to get labor to harvest fruit and vegetables. "Crews have been decimated at an alarming rate"" There's also a labor shortage for construction work, at wages above the country's mean, and higher than the "Plan de emergencia" wage, but of course, you don't have to work for that one, so that's the one people choose. It also goes agains the link the parent posted, which was what I was partly refuting: "a regular “paycheck” just for being alive, a paycheck sufficient to support basic human needs, with no means-test nor any rules on how it could be used"
    - Drbble 15y ago
      Yeah, a completely free payout open to all is unsustainable unless the robots and natural resources are so abundant no one has to work unless they are ambitious for a vocation; otherwise you get the market for lemons where raising wages just encourages more people to leave higher paying jobs, productivity and taxes until the welfare scheme goes bankrupt.

by itmag 15y ago

GFischer 15y ago

My country, Uruguay, implemented something like that ("Plan de emergencia"). And I don't like the results. The problem is not that they're "doing nothing", it's that they're actively increasing their burden to the working society by having an unsustainable amount of children. They're also REJECTING job offers (80% of those getting the emergency wage). And many of those job offers were for a good wage by local standards. (spanish links) http://elobservador.com.uy/noticia/214462/el-80-de-la-poblacion-del-mides-rechazo-una-oferta-de-trabajo/ http://elobservador.com.uy/noticia/214462/el-80-de-la-poblac... http://www.mides.gub.uy/mides/text.jsp?contentid=14247&site=1&channel=mides http://www.mides.gub.uy/mides/text.jsp?contentid=14247&s... It may sound fascist, but I'd like people to be able to support themselves before having children. The idea of a citizen's wage sounds nice in theory, but implementation opens a big can of worms.

Drbble 15y ago
Easy fix (logically, that is. Politically, nothing is easy). Have a US style "earned income tax credit" or "civilian conservation corps" where for folks get paid to work, and the government creates (productive, civil engineering and janitorial type) work if there is not enough private sector work,
- GFischer 15y ago
  Yes, I know it's a political problem not a logical one :( . There's plenty of work available, on the second link above, Alberto Iglesias, the president of the Farmer's federation acknowledged that (losing the wage if you get employed) makes it very difficult to get labor to harvest fruit and vegetables. "Crews have been decimated at an alarming rate"" There's also a labor shortage for construction work, at wages above the country's mean, and higher than the "Plan de emergencia" wage, but of course, you don't have to work for that one, so that's the one people choose. It also goes agains the link the parent posted, which was what I was partly refuting: "a regular “paycheck” just for being alive, a paycheck sufficient to support basic human needs, with no means-test nor any rules on how it could be used"
  - Drbble 15y ago
    Yeah, a completely free payout open to all is unsustainable unless the robots and natural resources are so abundant no one has to work unless they are ambitious for a vocation; otherwise you get the market for lemons where raising wages just encourages more people to leave higher paying jobs, productivity and taxes until the welfare scheme goes bankrupt.