5 ms·

As always with these kinds of headlines the answer is no. Humans live in a symbiotic relationship with bees, we can not exist without each other.

hagbarth 3y ago
That seems untrue. If nothing else due to the fact that bees existed for 10s of millions of years before humans did.
lopis 3y ago
What do you mean? We can live without bees from bee-keeping just fine. That's like saying cows and us can't live without each other.
- bnt 3y ago
  Uhm are you gonna run around fields chasing wild cows for milk and burgers?
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  sure - but the current number of cattle in the world would be unsustainable without human care and need for them. on edit: fixed grammar
- bborud 3y ago
  Not quite. Much of the industry for growing fruit depends on beekeepers renting out their bees as pollinators. As for cattle, well, yeah, they wholly depend on us. If you are in doubt just look at the relative sizes of populations of cattle vs mammalian wildlife.
  - lopis 3y ago
    Yes, cattle depends on us, but we definitely don't depend on them; that was the point I was trying to make.
    - defrost 3y ago
      Oh, really? How do you explain wild feral cattle thriving in the Kimberley, Arnhem Land, etc. then? https://news.csu.edu.au/feature/are-feral-cattle-the-brumbies-of-the-northern-territory https://news.csu.edu.au/feature/are-feral-cattle-the-brumbie... https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/offtrack/the-banteng-paradox/12176312 https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/offtrack/the-banteng-... http://www.windyhills.com.au/wild-cattle/ http://www.windyhills.com.au/wild-cattle/
      - bborud 3y ago
        I don't think you appreciate quite how many heads of cattle exist compared to comparable mammals that live in nature, and what it would look like if the world's cattle population was "free range". The way we raise cattle is extremely efficient. Not least in terms of space.
        defrost 3y ago
        > I don't think you appreciate quite how many heads of cattle Born and raised on a cattle station with multiple STEM degrees and decades mapping the world (large scale geophysical land and ocean survey) behind me .. I don't think you appreciate how laughably condescending you come across. Points being: * I understand the total number of cattle under direct human management, * I know that cattle can survive just fine without human management .. even in urban environments (ever seen free range unowned cattle in India?), * I've already linked to what feral cattle look like and the damage they do.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
inglor_cz 3y ago
Our current civilization certainly seems to score very high on neuroticism. 50 years from now, people will label the Zeistgeist as a resurgence of old Victorianism, with different (in direction, not in kind) racial and sexual taboos and an extra dollop of hairshirt environmentalism.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  Was there anything but neuroticism in non hunter gatherer societies?
dvh 3y ago
I think bees can easily live without humans, they would just became another insignificant species like many others, say for example, like Alburnoides Bipunctatus. Wait, why did I picked that one? What's so special about it that I picked it? Nothing, that's why I picked it.
- spookie 3y ago
  That's true, but I do agree in part that we've a pretty good relationship with bees. And, any beekeeper will respect the bees and only take what's needed without making their life harder.
  - vbezhenar 3y ago
    Beekeper extracts almost all honey and replaces it with sugar. Because sugar is cheap and bees survive with sugar. Edited typo
    - spookie 3y ago
      Well then, I'm sorry for my limited knowledge of artisinal beekeepers. That does make sense for bigger ones.
    - cryptonector 3y ago
      Not I! Sugar water is terrible for the bees. If you want strong colonies that over-winter fine and bounce back fast in the Spring to make lots of honey, then you'd best leave them plenty of honey to make it through the winter. I only extract half of what I harvest (freezing that which I don't extract so I can give it back later if the colonies need it), and I leave a fair bit in the hives too. Don't buy commercial honey. Buy local, small- and medium-batch honey.
    - pvaldes 3y ago
      > Beekeper extracts almost all bee and replaces it with sugar If you mean that the larvae combs are removed and replaced by sugar... most probably not. The idea is having as much bees by beehive as you can breed. If you mean that beekeepers remove "almost all" honey leaving bees to starve, this is an oversimplification. Any professional beekeeper know that will need to leave enough honey for winter. Leaving a minimum of 12-15 Kg of honey is standard and should suffice for the bees. If the beehive looks weak may not be harvested at all. Sugar is provided if needed as winter emergency feeding. The beekeeper will feed the bees in autumn also to assure that the fall born bees are as strong as fatty as possible.
hef19898 3y ago
Ah, yet another reminder to never ever read articles when the headline contains a question mark.
helsinkiandrew 3y ago
> As always with these kinds of headlines the answer is no. The article is making the case that the answer is Yes. It goes over the reasons why the current way of Beekeeping (predominately for harvesting their honey) could be bad for bees and explains methods that the 'natural beekeepers' are using to make their pollination role more sustainable. From the article: > Most beekeepers’ colonies are much larger than those which occur in the wild, and rival colonies might be separated by only a few yards, rather than by half a mile. Much of the bees’ honey, which is supposed to get them through the winter, is taken before they have a chance to eat it. A queen bee goes on a spree of mating flights early in her life, and then lays the fertilized eggs until her death. In apiaries, queens often have their wings clipped, to interrupt swarming (a colony’s natural form of reproduction), and are routinely inspected, and replaced by newcomers, sometimes imported from the other side of the world. Propolis—a wonderful, sticky substance that bees make from tree resin and that has antibacterial qualities—is typically scraped out of hives by beekeepers because it is annoying and hard to get off their hands. > Natural beekeepers leave their bees alone. They seldom treat for disease—allowing the weaker colonies to fail—and they raise the survivors in conditions that are as close as possible to tree cavities. They fill their hives with swarms that come in on the wing, rather than those which come from dealers who trade on the Internet.
- mrweasel 3y ago
  > replaced by newcomers, sometimes imported from the other side of the world Depending on how you view it that bit is actually wrong. You are specifically NOT ALLOWED to ship bees between e.g. Europe and North America. I think you can send sperm and maybe eggs (not sure if that's possible).
  - helsinkiandrew 3y ago
    Technically they were correct - the US can import from New Zealand, but yes its quite protected: https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import-information/permits/plant-pests/bees/honeybees-other https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import... Germplasm (which I think is used to artificially inseminate queens) does seem less restricted: https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import-information/permits/plant-pests/bees/ct_honeybee_germplasm https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import...
primax 3y ago
Also hives can (and do) abscond and go feral from the beekeepers hives any time they wish. They stay because the conditions are good.
- cryptonector 3y ago
  Basically this. Colonies stay for the room and occasional board, as well as all the flowers that beekeepers typically plant in the hopes of making their bees productive. Colonies do abscond, absolutely, and there's lots of feral honeybee colonies out there.
  - Lacerda69 3y ago
    Ok maybe its just a mutually very benificial relationship and we could survive without each other; but it's nicer together.

hagbarth 3y ago

That seems untrue. If nothing else due to the fact that bees existed for 10s of millions of years before humans did.

lopis 3y ago

What do you mean? We can live without bees from bee-keeping just fine. That's like saying cows and us can't live without each other.

bnt 3y ago
Uhm are you gonna run around fields chasing wild cows for milk and burgers?
bryanrasmussen 3y ago
sure - but the current number of cattle in the world would be unsustainable without human care and need for them. on edit: fixed grammar
bborud 3y ago
Not quite. Much of the industry for growing fruit depends on beekeepers renting out their bees as pollinators. As for cattle, well, yeah, they wholly depend on us. If you are in doubt just look at the relative sizes of populations of cattle vs mammalian wildlife.
- lopis 3y ago
  Yes, cattle depends on us, but we definitely don't depend on them; that was the point I was trying to make.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Oh, really? How do you explain wild feral cattle thriving in the Kimberley, Arnhem Land, etc. then? https://news.csu.edu.au/feature/are-feral-cattle-the-brumbies-of-the-northern-territory https://news.csu.edu.au/feature/are-feral-cattle-the-brumbie... https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/offtrack/the-banteng-paradox/12176312 https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/offtrack/the-banteng-... http://www.windyhills.com.au/wild-cattle/ http://www.windyhills.com.au/wild-cattle/
    - bborud 3y ago
      I don't think you appreciate quite how many heads of cattle exist compared to comparable mammals that live in nature, and what it would look like if the world's cattle population was "free range". The way we raise cattle is extremely efficient. Not least in terms of space.
      - defrost 3y ago
        > I don't think you appreciate quite how many heads of cattle Born and raised on a cattle station with multiple STEM degrees and decades mapping the world (large scale geophysical land and ocean survey) behind me .. I don't think you appreciate how laughably condescending you come across. Points being: * I understand the total number of cattle under direct human management, * I know that cattle can survive just fine without human management .. even in urban environments (ever seen free range unowned cattle in India?), * I've already linked to what feral cattle look like and the damage they do.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

inglor_cz 3y ago

Our current civilization certainly seems to score very high on neuroticism. 50 years from now, people will label the Zeistgeist as a resurgence of old Victorianism, with different (in direction, not in kind) racial and sexual taboos and an extra dollop of hairshirt environmentalism.

throwaway290 3y ago
Was there anything but neuroticism in non hunter gatherer societies?

dvh 3y ago

I think bees can easily live without humans, they would just became another insignificant species like many others, say for example, like Alburnoides Bipunctatus. Wait, why did I picked that one? What's so special about it that I picked it? Nothing, that's why I picked it.

spookie 3y ago
That's true, but I do agree in part that we've a pretty good relationship with bees. And, any beekeeper will respect the bees and only take what's needed without making their life harder.
- vbezhenar 3y ago
  Beekeper extracts almost all honey and replaces it with sugar. Because sugar is cheap and bees survive with sugar. Edited typo
  - spookie 3y ago
    Well then, I'm sorry for my limited knowledge of artisinal beekeepers. That does make sense for bigger ones.
  - cryptonector 3y ago
    Not I! Sugar water is terrible for the bees. If you want strong colonies that over-winter fine and bounce back fast in the Spring to make lots of honey, then you'd best leave them plenty of honey to make it through the winter. I only extract half of what I harvest (freezing that which I don't extract so I can give it back later if the colonies need it), and I leave a fair bit in the hives too. Don't buy commercial honey. Buy local, small- and medium-batch honey.
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    > Beekeper extracts almost all bee and replaces it with sugar If you mean that the larvae combs are removed and replaced by sugar... most probably not. The idea is having as much bees by beehive as you can breed. If you mean that beekeepers remove "almost all" honey leaving bees to starve, this is an oversimplification. Any professional beekeeper know that will need to leave enough honey for winter. Leaving a minimum of 12-15 Kg of honey is standard and should suffice for the bees. If the beehive looks weak may not be harvested at all. Sugar is provided if needed as winter emergency feeding. The beekeeper will feed the bees in autumn also to assure that the fall born bees are as strong as fatty as possible.

hef19898 3y ago

Ah, yet another reminder to never ever read articles when the headline contains a question mark.

helsinkiandrew 3y ago

> As always with these kinds of headlines the answer is no. The article is making the case that the answer is Yes. It goes over the reasons why the current way of Beekeeping (predominately for harvesting their honey) could be bad for bees and explains methods that the 'natural beekeepers' are using to make their pollination role more sustainable. From the article: > Most beekeepers’ colonies are much larger than those which occur in the wild, and rival colonies might be separated by only a few yards, rather than by half a mile. Much of the bees’ honey, which is supposed to get them through the winter, is taken before they have a chance to eat it. A queen bee goes on a spree of mating flights early in her life, and then lays the fertilized eggs until her death. In apiaries, queens often have their wings clipped, to interrupt swarming (a colony’s natural form of reproduction), and are routinely inspected, and replaced by newcomers, sometimes imported from the other side of the world. Propolis—a wonderful, sticky substance that bees make from tree resin and that has antibacterial qualities—is typically scraped out of hives by beekeepers because it is annoying and hard to get off their hands. > Natural beekeepers leave their bees alone. They seldom treat for disease—allowing the weaker colonies to fail—and they raise the survivors in conditions that are as close as possible to tree cavities. They fill their hives with swarms that come in on the wing, rather than those which come from dealers who trade on the Internet.

mrweasel 3y ago
> replaced by newcomers, sometimes imported from the other side of the world Depending on how you view it that bit is actually wrong. You are specifically NOT ALLOWED to ship bees between e.g. Europe and North America. I think you can send sperm and maybe eggs (not sure if that's possible).
- helsinkiandrew 3y ago
  Technically they were correct - the US can import from New Zealand, but yes its quite protected: https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import-information/permits/plant-pests/bees/honeybees-other https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import... Germplasm (which I think is used to artificially inseminate queens) does seem less restricted: https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import-information/permits/plant-pests/bees/ct_honeybee_germplasm https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import...

primax 3y ago

Also hives can (and do) abscond and go feral from the beekeepers hives any time they wish. They stay because the conditions are good.

cryptonector 3y ago
Basically this. Colonies stay for the room and occasional board, as well as all the flowers that beekeepers typically plant in the hopes of making their bees productive. Colonies do abscond, absolutely, and there's lots of feral honeybee colonies out there.
- Lacerda69 3y ago
  Ok maybe its just a mutually very benificial relationship and we could survive without each other; but it's nicer together.