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> So, the emergency sirens weren't used They weren't used because the website [1] specifically says that in the event of a siren you should "if you in a low la

> So, the emergency sirens weren't used They weren't used because the website [1] specifically says that in the event of a siren you should "if you in a low laying area near the coastline; evacuate to high grounds, inland". This would directly route people towards the fire not away. And given that tsunamis can sometimes trigger fire it easily could have caused confusion in some. It definitely wasn't a clear decision as some like to make out. [1] https://dod.hawaii.gov/hiema/all-hazard-statewide-outdoor-warning-siren-system/ https://dod.hawaii.gov/hiema/all-hazard-statewide-outdoor-wa...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ggm 3y ago
None of these rulebook cases are. It's clear that some of the risks here were real, but it's also likely some of them are hypothetical. This will be argued out for a long time. What often happens is the rulebook is amended. Add a new siren-tone, modify the instructions to turn on a radio or TV and get more specific advice, something changes, to reflect the new understanding. Or not. Sometimes, you can't fix this. The sirens are for tsunamis and some other system is needed for wildfires. Which risk do you think is more likely, and more consequential in the medium to short term? I don't know, I don't have the answers here. But I do believe, people in Lahaina probably wanted to be alerted, somehow to the risk.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  So why is this case noteworthy enough for you to elaborate on?
  - ggm 3y ago
    Because it formed part of the legal defence of a decision to release water, and incur flooding, in consequence of which people went to law. I would imagine, perhaps wrongly, that in the case of Lahaina people who have suffered catastrophic loss will be considering if there was a state, or town, or other official who had a duty of care, and who may be taken to law, or their body taken to law for failure to act. What do you think?
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      What are you asking me to think in regards to? Can you clarify your first paragraph and separate out each claim?
      - ggm 3y ago
        > So why is this case noteworthy enough for you to elaborate on? What did this question mean?
        j16sdiz 3y ago
        Some ChatGPT nonsense, i guess. Some people think hooking HN to chat bot is funny
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        > Some ChatGPT nonsense, i guess. Some people think hooking HN to chat bot is funny This would be a bit more convincing if it wasn't written by a random pseudonym account. Right now it seems silly since it can't possibly help improve your account's credibility, in fact most likely it will do the opposite.
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        Whatever you thought it meant for your preceding comment? Typically HN users don't write random responses to a comment they didn't understand. But if you were literally just putting some words down for the sake of replying with something, (for what reason?), then I'm not really sure how to take that.
      - CapitalistCartr 3y ago
        ggm can explain it for you, but he can't do your thinking for you.
jjcm 3y ago
> > So, the emergency sirens weren't used > They weren't used because the website [1] specifically says that in the event of a siren you should "if you in a low laying area near the coastline; evacuate to high grounds, inland". +1 to this. Everyone on the island knows those sirens. I was there in 2011 when the sirens went off to warn about the incoming tsunami from the Tohoku earthquake[0]. We packed sandwiches and water, and headed for high ground along with everyone else. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_and_tsunami#Elsewhere_across_the_Pacific https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_an...
- zarzavat 3y ago
  Misuse of the sirens on one occasion might also cause people to hesitate in the future if there were to be a tsunami. And you really don’t have time to hesitate in that situation.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    it's too bad when they were going to the trouble to install sirens all over "the last mile", they didn't think to have more than one alarm meaning.
    - ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
      The sirens are only along the coast. Not mountain side.
      - fsckboy 3y ago
        > The sirens are only along the coast. Not mountain side. the better to lure sailors onto the rocks! (the word Siren comes from Greek mythology, Siren's were "humanlike beings with very alluring voices, they appear in a scene in the Odyssey in which Odysseus" stops "the ears of his crew with wax so that they were deaf to the Sirens. Odysseus himself wanted to hear their song but had himself tied to the mast so that he would not be able to steer the ship off its course." in latin languages such as Italian, "mermaid" is "la sirena")
cameldrv 3y ago
I think it’s normal procedure in California when an evacuation is ordered for the police to go door to door making sure everyone is out. Regardless of the sirens, depending on mobile phones, which in this case did not work, is not good enough. Even if the network were running, not everyone has a phone or it’s turned off or the battery is dead. You can’t just leave those people to die. Even just driving around town with a bullhorn would have saved a lot of lives.
- dylan604 3y ago
  >depending on mobile phones, which in this case did not work, is not good enough Hawaii's use of mobile phone notifications do not have a good track record for those of us only hearing about how they don't work. At least they did not receive incoming nuclear attack messages to throw even more chaos into the situation
- somat 3y ago
  This, I think the reason for the large number of deaths in the event was that because there are no wild fires in Hawaii the government and people were unprepared for it. they have lava(which is not the same) but are used to dealing with that. This will happen whenever an infrequent event happens. A large earthquake hits the British islands, complete clusterfuck, japan, they handle it. A hurricane hits Florida, they are used to it. southern California, everybody goes insane.
  - ryathal 3y ago
    Exactly, we see this almost every year when a southern state gets a light dusting of snow.
TeeMassive 3y ago
True, wild fires are known to not emit light and not emit anything visible. People wouldn't have known.
- vel0city 3y ago
  Wildfires can move incredibly quickly when you're in the path and can change direction extremely rapidly. If you're inside it could be very easy to not know one is coming until it's too late.
- Johnny555 3y ago
  Power was already out, people had no communication, distant earthquakes have no signs until the tsunami comes… so what will people do when the Tsunami sirens go off? Evacuate along the coast where they are safer from fire but at risk from tsunami, or evacuate inland into the fires?
  - macinjosh 3y ago
    Not Tsunami sirens. Emergency sirens. Their rules said it could be used for any calamity.
    - Johnny555 3y ago
      When I lived on Oahu, my landlord told me that if the sirens go off, follow the evacuation route and head to higher ground. I've never heard anyone talk about them in the context of any other emergency warning.
      - more_corn 3y ago
        That will change. Emergency protocols are written in blood. The sirens will be used next time and people will be trained in the different meanings.
jibe 3y ago
That page also specifically calls out wildfires as one of the uses of the sirens. I agree it wasn’t a clear decision, but still a mistake not to use them. The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Alupis 3y ago
Ok, so don't use that specific siren. What about all the other emergency communication systems that exist? We get Amber and Silver alerts directly on our cell phones. Heck, I've received "poor air quality" alerts even. There's also the classic emergency frequency stuff for radio/tv. Why were none of those mechanisms used? Or were they, and they're just not being reported on?
- lolinder 3y ago
  They did use them, but cell towers and electricity were out in much of the area. https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/maui-emergency-chief-defends-decision-not-to-activate-warning-sirens/ https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/maui-emergency-chief-defen...
bhk 3y ago
That page also says: > The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more. > When a siren tone is heard other than a scheduled test, tune into local Radio/TV/Cable stations for emergency information and instructions by official authorities.
msandford 3y ago
From that website: The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ggm 3y ago

None of these rulebook cases are. It's clear that some of the risks here were real, but it's also likely some of them are hypothetical. This will be argued out for a long time. What often happens is the rulebook is amended. Add a new siren-tone, modify the instructions to turn on a radio or TV and get more specific advice, something changes, to reflect the new understanding. Or not. Sometimes, you can't fix this. The sirens are for tsunamis and some other system is needed for wildfires. Which risk do you think is more likely, and more consequential in the medium to short term? I don't know, I don't have the answers here. But I do believe, people in Lahaina probably wanted to be alerted, somehow to the risk.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
So why is this case noteworthy enough for you to elaborate on?
- ggm 3y ago
  Because it formed part of the legal defence of a decision to release water, and incur flooding, in consequence of which people went to law. I would imagine, perhaps wrongly, that in the case of Lahaina people who have suffered catastrophic loss will be considering if there was a state, or town, or other official who had a duty of care, and who may be taken to law, or their body taken to law for failure to act. What do you think?
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    What are you asking me to think in regards to? Can you clarify your first paragraph and separate out each claim?
    - ggm 3y ago
      > So why is this case noteworthy enough for you to elaborate on? What did this question mean?
      - j16sdiz 3y ago
        Some ChatGPT nonsense, i guess. Some people think hooking HN to chat bot is funny
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        > Some ChatGPT nonsense, i guess. Some people think hooking HN to chat bot is funny This would be a bit more convincing if it wasn't written by a random pseudonym account. Right now it seems silly since it can't possibly help improve your account's credibility, in fact most likely it will do the opposite.
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        Whatever you thought it meant for your preceding comment? Typically HN users don't write random responses to a comment they didn't understand. But if you were literally just putting some words down for the sake of replying with something, (for what reason?), then I'm not really sure how to take that.
    - CapitalistCartr 3y ago
      ggm can explain it for you, but he can't do your thinking for you.

jjcm 3y ago

> > So, the emergency sirens weren't used > They weren't used because the website [1] specifically says that in the event of a siren you should "if you in a low laying area near the coastline; evacuate to high grounds, inland". +1 to this. Everyone on the island knows those sirens. I was there in 2011 when the sirens went off to warn about the incoming tsunami from the Tohoku earthquake[0]. We packed sandwiches and water, and headed for high ground along with everyone else. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_and_tsunami#Elsewhere_across_the_Pacific https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_an...

zarzavat 3y ago
Misuse of the sirens on one occasion might also cause people to hesitate in the future if there were to be a tsunami. And you really don’t have time to hesitate in that situation.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  it's too bad when they were going to the trouble to install sirens all over "the last mile", they didn't think to have more than one alarm meaning.
  - ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
    The sirens are only along the coast. Not mountain side.
    - fsckboy 3y ago
      > The sirens are only along the coast. Not mountain side. the better to lure sailors onto the rocks! (the word Siren comes from Greek mythology, Siren's were "humanlike beings with very alluring voices, they appear in a scene in the Odyssey in which Odysseus" stops "the ears of his crew with wax so that they were deaf to the Sirens. Odysseus himself wanted to hear their song but had himself tied to the mast so that he would not be able to steer the ship off its course." in latin languages such as Italian, "mermaid" is "la sirena")

cameldrv 3y ago

I think it’s normal procedure in California when an evacuation is ordered for the police to go door to door making sure everyone is out. Regardless of the sirens, depending on mobile phones, which in this case did not work, is not good enough. Even if the network were running, not everyone has a phone or it’s turned off or the battery is dead. You can’t just leave those people to die. Even just driving around town with a bullhorn would have saved a lot of lives.

dylan604 3y ago
>depending on mobile phones, which in this case did not work, is not good enough Hawaii's use of mobile phone notifications do not have a good track record for those of us only hearing about how they don't work. At least they did not receive incoming nuclear attack messages to throw even more chaos into the situation
somat 3y ago
This, I think the reason for the large number of deaths in the event was that because there are no wild fires in Hawaii the government and people were unprepared for it. they have lava(which is not the same) but are used to dealing with that. This will happen whenever an infrequent event happens. A large earthquake hits the British islands, complete clusterfuck, japan, they handle it. A hurricane hits Florida, they are used to it. southern California, everybody goes insane.
- ryathal 3y ago
  Exactly, we see this almost every year when a southern state gets a light dusting of snow.

TeeMassive 3y ago

True, wild fires are known to not emit light and not emit anything visible. People wouldn't have known.

vel0city 3y ago
Wildfires can move incredibly quickly when you're in the path and can change direction extremely rapidly. If you're inside it could be very easy to not know one is coming until it's too late.
Johnny555 3y ago
Power was already out, people had no communication, distant earthquakes have no signs until the tsunami comes… so what will people do when the Tsunami sirens go off? Evacuate along the coast where they are safer from fire but at risk from tsunami, or evacuate inland into the fires?
- macinjosh 3y ago
  Not Tsunami sirens. Emergency sirens. Their rules said it could be used for any calamity.
  - Johnny555 3y ago
    When I lived on Oahu, my landlord told me that if the sirens go off, follow the evacuation route and head to higher ground. I've never heard anyone talk about them in the context of any other emergency warning.
    - more_corn 3y ago
      That will change. Emergency protocols are written in blood. The sirens will be used next time and people will be trained in the different meanings.

jibe 3y ago

That page also specifically calls out wildfires as one of the uses of the sirens. I agree it wasn’t a clear decision, but still a mistake not to use them. The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Alupis 3y ago

Ok, so don't use that specific siren. What about all the other emergency communication systems that exist? We get Amber and Silver alerts directly on our cell phones. Heck, I've received "poor air quality" alerts even. There's also the classic emergency frequency stuff for radio/tv. Why were none of those mechanisms used? Or were they, and they're just not being reported on?

lolinder 3y ago
They did use them, but cell towers and electricity were out in much of the area. https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/maui-emergency-chief-defends-decision-not-to-activate-warning-sirens/ https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/maui-emergency-chief-defen...

bhk 3y ago

That page also says: > The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more. > When a siren tone is heard other than a scheduled test, tune into local Radio/TV/Cable stations for emergency information and instructions by official authorities.

msandford 3y ago

From that website: The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more.