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>It is hard not to be pessimistic nowadays. In industrial countries, the pendulum has swung from excessive faith in the liberal orthodoxy to faith in populist p

>It is hard not to be pessimistic nowadays. In industrial countries, the pendulum has swung from excessive faith in the liberal orthodoxy to faith in populist policies, until their deficiencies become obvious once again. The deficiencies are as obvious as they always were and people should communicate this more stronlgy. It's actually insane how well the US economy is doing. Growth rates in countries that have a fraction of the per capital income of the US are now converging on similar rates before ever having gotten rich. Birth rates in most of those countries are tanking. People were claiming China will overtake the US economy in 2030, now that's being revised further and further back with 'not at all' becoming a distinct possibility. In Russia they're unironically bringing Kalashnikov lessons to school students, Soviet style. Liberal societies had their problems in dealing with Covid but behavior was responsive and driven by more and more data coming in, in China they bolted people into their homes for a year and then pretended the virus didn't matter from one day to the other. Convincing people that liberalism still works basically only means pointing them to how the world factually really looks.

Panzer04 3y ago
A surprisingly large amount of people just don't believe the world looks this way, though. They are so wrapped up in some minute anecdotally supported factor (energy prices went up 20%! Inflation is running wild!) They don't recognise how well everything else is going.
paganel 3y ago
> y. It's actually insane how well the US economy is doing. The economy is doing insanely well while its people are doing insanely bad. The life has been dropping for two years in a row [1] and there were around 110k deaths of despair between February 2021 and February 2022 [2]. If those are the signs of an economy doing "insanely well" I dread to see what a recession will bring. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2022/20220831.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2022/... [2] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rising-physical-pain-is-linked-to-more-deaths-of-despair1/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rising-physical-p...
- tptacek 3y ago
  Employment is high, real incomes are rising, the US economy is growing faster and with less inflation than any of its peers. There are limits to what an economy, over the span of 4 or 8 or 10 years, can do to stem "despair". But in the sense that we measure economies, "the people" aren't doing "insane bad". The last few years of the economy have been pretty good for people.
  - paganel 3y ago
    > The last few years of the economy have been pretty good for people I'm sure that is has been doing great for middle- to high-middle-class people active on this website, I had hoped though that some of those middle- to high-middle-class people would have opened their eyes to the reality around them, but apparently they don't. Even dictatorial China has a better life expectancy than the US, Albania even, all this while middle-class people call this US economy as "insanely good"?
    - tptacek 3y ago
      No, the economy has been doing better for everybody for the last several years. The US life expectancy is a function of cars and guns, not the economy.
      - paganel 3y ago
        And I thought the Communist brain-washing was doing great back in the '80s, but this is next level. You're ignoring the huge drug problem that is causing that life expectancy drop and blaming it on guns (?!?) and cars (?!?). What can I say, I'm 100% sure that the next US populist president that will get elected (be it Trump or anyone else) will be blamed on either the Russians (like in 2016), the Chinese, the electorate being stupid (like in 2016) or on the aliens, not on the dreadful material conditions that are present throughout the US. And wage slavery is a thing, it's no use if you have a job if it barely allows you to pay for (some) housing and some food, no matter what the unemployment statistics might say.
iraqmtpizza 3y ago
I fail to see the issue with Kalashnikov lessons but ok. I never see people talk about protectionism in the eurozone. Are we just blinded by all the kumbaya rhetoric and hand-holding? Why the hell is that considered a triumph of liberal economics when the 50 states are not? There is some industrial-scale lying going on. It is as if the euro cartel has economically sanctioned everyone that isn't them.
mistermann 3y ago
> Convincing people that liberalism still works basically only means pointing them to how the world factually really looks. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. As just one example: "works", as in "liberalism works", is not a true/false binary, and there's little genuine reason to think our current designs are anywhere near optimal on an absolute scale. Convincing people something is true can often be done simply by using language skilfully.

Panzer04 3y ago

A surprisingly large amount of people just don't believe the world looks this way, though. They are so wrapped up in some minute anecdotally supported factor (energy prices went up 20%! Inflation is running wild!) They don't recognise how well everything else is going.

paganel 3y ago

> y. It's actually insane how well the US economy is doing. The economy is doing insanely well while its people are doing insanely bad. The life has been dropping for two years in a row [1] and there were around 110k deaths of despair between February 2021 and February 2022 [2]. If those are the signs of an economy doing "insanely well" I dread to see what a recession will bring. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2022/20220831.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2022/... [2] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rising-physical-pain-is-linked-to-more-deaths-of-despair1/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rising-physical-p...

tptacek 3y ago
Employment is high, real incomes are rising, the US economy is growing faster and with less inflation than any of its peers. There are limits to what an economy, over the span of 4 or 8 or 10 years, can do to stem "despair". But in the sense that we measure economies, "the people" aren't doing "insane bad". The last few years of the economy have been pretty good for people.
- paganel 3y ago
  > The last few years of the economy have been pretty good for people I'm sure that is has been doing great for middle- to high-middle-class people active on this website, I had hoped though that some of those middle- to high-middle-class people would have opened their eyes to the reality around them, but apparently they don't. Even dictatorial China has a better life expectancy than the US, Albania even, all this while middle-class people call this US economy as "insanely good"?
  - tptacek 3y ago
    No, the economy has been doing better for everybody for the last several years. The US life expectancy is a function of cars and guns, not the economy.
    - paganel 3y ago
      And I thought the Communist brain-washing was doing great back in the '80s, but this is next level. You're ignoring the huge drug problem that is causing that life expectancy drop and blaming it on guns (?!?) and cars (?!?). What can I say, I'm 100% sure that the next US populist president that will get elected (be it Trump or anyone else) will be blamed on either the Russians (like in 2016), the Chinese, the electorate being stupid (like in 2016) or on the aliens, not on the dreadful material conditions that are present throughout the US. And wage slavery is a thing, it's no use if you have a job if it barely allows you to pay for (some) housing and some food, no matter what the unemployment statistics might say.

iraqmtpizza 3y ago

I fail to see the issue with Kalashnikov lessons but ok. I never see people talk about protectionism in the eurozone. Are we just blinded by all the kumbaya rhetoric and hand-holding? Why the hell is that considered a triumph of liberal economics when the 50 states are not? There is some industrial-scale lying going on. It is as if the euro cartel has economically sanctioned everyone that isn't them.

mistermann 3y ago

> Convincing people that liberalism still works basically only means pointing them to how the world factually really looks. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. As just one example: "works", as in "liberalism works", is not a true/false binary, and there's little genuine reason to think our current designs are anywhere near optimal on an absolute scale. Convincing people something is true can often be done simply by using language skilfully.