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Sadly the Tao of Pooh does not outline the basic tenets of Daoism. As van Norden says in the chapter on the Daodejing in his Introduction to Classical Chinese P

Sadly the Tao of Pooh does not outline the basic tenets of Daoism. As van Norden says in the chapter on the Daodejing in his Introduction to Classical Chinese Philosophy: > The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff ... is a charming work that has attained a wide readership. There is nothing wrong with enjoying it for itself. But it reveals much more about how the Daodejing as been appropriated to illustrate Western Romanticism than it does about the Daodejing itself. (See later in this section for more on Romanticism). and, later on, here's what he has to say about the appropriation of the Daodejing and Daoism for Romanticism: > We see a similar trend in the West. In particular, contemporary Westerners often project onto the Daodejing the assumptions of Romanticism. In reaction against the emphasis on reason that was characteristic of the Enlightenment, Romanticism championed the importance and wisdom of one's passions. But the dichotomy of reason and passion is Western, not Chinese, and the individualism characteristic in some forms of Romanticism is quite alien to the Daodejing. Consequently, we should be on the lookout for how Romantic preconceptions can distort our appreciation of the text. Sadly, there's not many good non-academic introductions to Daoism out there, and the most popular translation - Stephen Mitchell's - was done by someone who can't even read Classical Chinese, but thought his Zen teaching was a 'good enough' guide to allow him to translate it. ----------- All this is to say I'm glad the book worked for you, and helped you find peace. It's just not Daoism (nor is Alan Watts!)

everydayDonut 3y ago
Wow thank you for this! I suppose that's what the answer could have been for me, a kind of bridging between my lifelong reverence and pursuit of reason, and the passion or intuition that I didn't understand in others or myself. I'm still early into reading the James Legge translation, but I've heard that there are many interpretations of the original. Is the tao of pooh not even close to daoism then?
- javert 3y ago
  Perhaps the Tao of Pooh is better than the original Taoism, or is an improvement. If you like TOP better, or think it's more correct, or more wise, that's fine. (I don't think so, but someone else might.) I also strongly disagree with some of the sibling comments which insist that Taoism does not have a non-mystical (i.e., non-religious) core. As a disclaimer, I'm not really an expert. But I can see that there is a wise and rational framework there, that does not depend on make believe.
- stryan 3y ago
  Not OP and it's been a long time since I've read the Tao of Pooh, but from what I recall it's alright, but it really doesn't cover much of the real meat of Taoism. Much like Alan Watts, it provides an interesting philosophy, possibly even a helpful one, but it's not Daoism. Like watching an American re-make of a foreign movie :) I'd be a bit wary of older translations[0] and try to get a reputable new one if you can. I recommend either Thomas Cleary's[1] or Victor Mairs; the latter was made based off the oldest copy of the Tao Te Ching we've found so far and includes a lot of interesting historical background. If you want a more historical look I recommend Early Daoist Scriptures by Stephen Bokenkamp, which is fascinating if a little dry. There's also The Taoist Body by Kristofer Schipper which goes into how Taoism is practiced in modern Taiwan: Kristofer was actually ordained as a Taoism priest and learned many rituals supposedly wiped out in China during the Cultural Revolution. [0] I think Legge's translation is actually alright, but it was really a crap-shoot back then. Infamously, Richard Wilhelms translation of "The Secret of the Golden Flower" is said by some to be so badly done as to in some parts convey the exact opposite of what the text says. [1] Thomas Clearly (who was also the biggest critic of Wilhelms translation, for context) published a collection of his TTC and Chuang Tzu translations as one book, The Essential Tao, if you're looking to read the latter too. I highly recommend it
  - everydayDonut 3y ago
    I like the movie metaphor, some turn out to be very different from the original and I don't always like that. This seems like a great list you've compiled, thank you. The deeper dives you've recommended sound very interesting too. I think I'll bookmark this
    - stryan 3y ago
      You're welcome! I realized I'd be remiss in not mentioning David Hinton as well: he's an American poet who's also a professional Chinese translator and has produced many excellent translations[0] over the years. He has a very distinct translation style were he translates as much of it as directly as possible (which is already difficult going from Ancient Chinese to Modern Chinese, let alone English) and really helps you get how different the thought really is while still keeping the originals poetic quality. [0] I recommend his translations of the inner Chuang Tzu chapters and the I-Ching, as well as his book China Root.
carabiner 3y ago
Reminds me of how "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" has nothing to do with zen.
- cypherpunks01 3y ago
  "Not very factual on motorcycles, either" : )
  - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    would you mind elaborating? it's been for years on my book list. but if it is neither about zen nor about motorcycles on a meaningful level then i can probably remove it.
    - ccmonnett 3y ago
      I would not let the author's tongue-in-cheek title discourage you from reading what is a very widely respected, well-received book :). Unless the rest of the books on your list are exclusively about motorcycle repair, in which case... still consider giving it a read.
    - cypherpunks01 3y ago
      Both of the above are little quips from the author in his own short introduction to the book - his main point is that nobody should confuse the book with any work on Zen Buddhism. I just remembered these lines from the book's intro reading it many years ago, The line about motorcycles is him just being modest - he knows how to fix his bike, this does feature in the book. It is a philosophy and adventure book, not about Zen, but filled with many of the author's own unique ideas. He studied Eastern religions and they do inform some of his ideas, which he combines with Western thought in an interesting way. It's off-beat, but I personally found it to be pretty inspiring and would definitely recommend reading it for anyone interested in philosophy.
opportune 3y ago
What would you recommend as an introduction to Daoism, even if academic? I am not an expert on the subject but IMO Taoism has a very similar phenomenon to Buddhism (and indeed all religions or popular philosophies really) in that the “classical”, original, core teachings are pretty different from the organized later movements under the same name. So the context - philosophical, historical, sociological, spiritual - in which you approach the subject and whether you’re doing so on the basis of the original thing or its more organized movements might make it so people interested in it under different contexts both think the other is ignorant or incorrect. I haven’t read the Tao of Pooh myself but I want to point this out because I think it’s possible to understand Taoism (the classical philosophy) and concepts like Wu-wei without necessarily knowing anything about Neidan and or “Taoist Magic”
- spandrew 3y ago
  This is fine though. All of these things, including the original sources, are philosophies as product of the time they were written. Ie. It makes sense for them to change as the society around them changes. If one guy reads the Tao of Pooh and it helps him 'be' — that is the point. Laozi would likely agree: don't overthink it.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >If one guy reads the Tao of Pooh and it helps him 'be' — that is the point. Laozi would likely agree: don't overthink it. That's still a Western way to see it. For Laozi that wouldn't "be the point". The point of his teaching was not to help people "be" in any which way, but to be in a particular way, within a certain philosophy of the world and our duties in it.
    - p3rls 3y ago
      Laozi would see it as fulfillment of his final mission to the western gates. Let us remember, the old master wasn't even going to leave any writings for you at all until he was kidnapped during his final attempt to emigrate from the orient.
- 3y ago
uwagar 3y ago
[flagged]
- Tagbert 3y ago
  That is just an example of different conventions of romanizations of Chinese characters. Both should be pronounced with “d”.
  - rendang 3y ago
    I thought the consonant there is unvoiced like an English T but without the little aspiration afterward that English speakers use. So like the difference between the ancient Greek Tau and Theta (which was not originally pronounced with an English th-sound)
  - uwagar 3y ago
    it felt elitist to use d for dao instead of t for tao.
brightlancer 3y ago
I know virtually nothing about Daoism, but I know a lot about Christian theology and there is not agreement on what Christian belief _is_. It gets even funnier when we compare Christian theology and its interpretations of the Old Testament to Jewish theology and its interpretations of the Hebrew Bible (which Christians made their Old Testament). So, who decides what Daoist belief _is_? And isn't?
- mario-main 3y ago
  >there is not agreement on what Christian belief _is_ this isn't true at all. It's quite simply an Abrahamic religion based around following the teachings of Jesus Christ. There are plenty of different doctrines and interpretations but you can tell what is and isn't a Christian church. Same thing with Daoism. Daoism is both a religion and a philosophy with very specific teachings and traditions. You can argue about how to interpret it, but that's not what pop philosophy books like The Tao of Pooh are doing.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > >there is not agreement on what Christian belief _is_ > this isn't true at all. Yes, it is. > It's quite simply an Abrahamic religion based around following the teachings of Jesus Christ. That's not even the most common of the competing ideas, in part because it is useless because it just pushes the lack of consensus out one level because there is no consensus on what, if anything, are “the teachings of Jesus Christ”. There is a broad consensus among the theologians of communities making up the vast majority of self-described Christians on what thr boundaries of Christianity are, but it excludes a fair number of other self-descibed Christians, and even common members of those communities often have narrower definitions. > but you can tell what is and isn't a Christian church. Lots of people “can tell”, but they won’t agree. Where its important to a discussion, people who are careful will define the term as it applies to the specific discussion. There is no one true right answer separate from specific context of usage. (This is true of language generally, but its especially true of trying to do binary in/out boundaries of communities or other spaces with near-continuous variation.)
  - brightlancer 3y ago
kgwxd 3y ago
Why should anyone care what van Norden has to say on the subject anymore than anyone else? Anyone who adopts an idea to paint themselves an “authority” on it shouldn’t be trusted, especially in this domain.
- mario-main 3y ago
  van Norden is an award-winning scholar who has dedicated his entire life to classical Chinese philosophy. He has taught the subject at universities for decades. I think his PhD earns him the privilege of being seen as more of an authority on this particular subject than Benjamin Hoff, whose credentials are a BA in Asian art and learning a Japanese version of Qigong as a hobby.
  - kgwxd 3y ago
    None of that means anything. Classical != right/accurate/useful. That mindset just gives authority to age, which does not correlate.
coldtea 3y ago
>Sadly the Tao of Pooh does not outline the basic tenets of Daoism. I mean, one would surely expect a certain amount of straying from scholarly excellence and some limits to its historical accuracy on the subject, given the book features Winnie-the-Pooh...

everydayDonut 3y ago

Wow thank you for this! I suppose that's what the answer could have been for me, a kind of bridging between my lifelong reverence and pursuit of reason, and the passion or intuition that I didn't understand in others or myself. I'm still early into reading the James Legge translation, but I've heard that there are many interpretations of the original. Is the tao of pooh not even close to daoism then?

javert 3y ago
Perhaps the Tao of Pooh is better than the original Taoism, or is an improvement. If you like TOP better, or think it's more correct, or more wise, that's fine. (I don't think so, but someone else might.) I also strongly disagree with some of the sibling comments which insist that Taoism does not have a non-mystical (i.e., non-religious) core. As a disclaimer, I'm not really an expert. But I can see that there is a wise and rational framework there, that does not depend on make believe.
stryan 3y ago
Not OP and it's been a long time since I've read the Tao of Pooh, but from what I recall it's alright, but it really doesn't cover much of the real meat of Taoism. Much like Alan Watts, it provides an interesting philosophy, possibly even a helpful one, but it's not Daoism. Like watching an American re-make of a foreign movie :) I'd be a bit wary of older translations[0] and try to get a reputable new one if you can. I recommend either Thomas Cleary's[1] or Victor Mairs; the latter was made based off the oldest copy of the Tao Te Ching we've found so far and includes a lot of interesting historical background. If you want a more historical look I recommend Early Daoist Scriptures by Stephen Bokenkamp, which is fascinating if a little dry. There's also The Taoist Body by Kristofer Schipper which goes into how Taoism is practiced in modern Taiwan: Kristofer was actually ordained as a Taoism priest and learned many rituals supposedly wiped out in China during the Cultural Revolution. [0] I think Legge's translation is actually alright, but it was really a crap-shoot back then. Infamously, Richard Wilhelms translation of "The Secret of the Golden Flower" is said by some to be so badly done as to in some parts convey the exact opposite of what the text says. [1] Thomas Clearly (who was also the biggest critic of Wilhelms translation, for context) published a collection of his TTC and Chuang Tzu translations as one book, The Essential Tao, if you're looking to read the latter too. I highly recommend it
- everydayDonut 3y ago
  I like the movie metaphor, some turn out to be very different from the original and I don't always like that. This seems like a great list you've compiled, thank you. The deeper dives you've recommended sound very interesting too. I think I'll bookmark this
  - stryan 3y ago
    You're welcome! I realized I'd be remiss in not mentioning David Hinton as well: he's an American poet who's also a professional Chinese translator and has produced many excellent translations[0] over the years. He has a very distinct translation style were he translates as much of it as directly as possible (which is already difficult going from Ancient Chinese to Modern Chinese, let alone English) and really helps you get how different the thought really is while still keeping the originals poetic quality. [0] I recommend his translations of the inner Chuang Tzu chapters and the I-Ching, as well as his book China Root.

carabiner 3y ago

Reminds me of how "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" has nothing to do with zen.

cypherpunks01 3y ago
"Not very factual on motorcycles, either" : )
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  would you mind elaborating? it's been for years on my book list. but if it is neither about zen nor about motorcycles on a meaningful level then i can probably remove it.
  - ccmonnett 3y ago
    I would not let the author's tongue-in-cheek title discourage you from reading what is a very widely respected, well-received book :). Unless the rest of the books on your list are exclusively about motorcycle repair, in which case... still consider giving it a read.
  - cypherpunks01 3y ago
    Both of the above are little quips from the author in his own short introduction to the book - his main point is that nobody should confuse the book with any work on Zen Buddhism. I just remembered these lines from the book's intro reading it many years ago, The line about motorcycles is him just being modest - he knows how to fix his bike, this does feature in the book. It is a philosophy and adventure book, not about Zen, but filled with many of the author's own unique ideas. He studied Eastern religions and they do inform some of his ideas, which he combines with Western thought in an interesting way. It's off-beat, but I personally found it to be pretty inspiring and would definitely recommend reading it for anyone interested in philosophy.

opportune 3y ago

What would you recommend as an introduction to Daoism, even if academic? I am not an expert on the subject but IMO Taoism has a very similar phenomenon to Buddhism (and indeed all religions or popular philosophies really) in that the “classical”, original, core teachings are pretty different from the organized later movements under the same name. So the context - philosophical, historical, sociological, spiritual - in which you approach the subject and whether you’re doing so on the basis of the original thing or its more organized movements might make it so people interested in it under different contexts both think the other is ignorant or incorrect. I haven’t read the Tao of Pooh myself but I want to point this out because I think it’s possible to understand Taoism (the classical philosophy) and concepts like Wu-wei without necessarily knowing anything about Neidan and or “Taoist Magic”

spandrew 3y ago
This is fine though. All of these things, including the original sources, are philosophies as product of the time they were written. Ie. It makes sense for them to change as the society around them changes. If one guy reads the Tao of Pooh and it helps him 'be' — that is the point. Laozi would likely agree: don't overthink it.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >If one guy reads the Tao of Pooh and it helps him 'be' — that is the point. Laozi would likely agree: don't overthink it. That's still a Western way to see it. For Laozi that wouldn't "be the point". The point of his teaching was not to help people "be" in any which way, but to be in a particular way, within a certain philosophy of the world and our duties in it.
  - p3rls 3y ago
    Laozi would see it as fulfillment of his final mission to the western gates. Let us remember, the old master wasn't even going to leave any writings for you at all until he was kidnapped during his final attempt to emigrate from the orient.
3y ago

uwagar 3y ago

[flagged]

Tagbert 3y ago
That is just an example of different conventions of romanizations of Chinese characters. Both should be pronounced with “d”.
- rendang 3y ago
  I thought the consonant there is unvoiced like an English T but without the little aspiration afterward that English speakers use. So like the difference between the ancient Greek Tau and Theta (which was not originally pronounced with an English th-sound)
- uwagar 3y ago
  it felt elitist to use d for dao instead of t for tao.

brightlancer 3y ago

I know virtually nothing about Daoism, but I know a lot about Christian theology and there is not agreement on what Christian belief _is_. It gets even funnier when we compare Christian theology and its interpretations of the Old Testament to Jewish theology and its interpretations of the Hebrew Bible (which Christians made their Old Testament). So, who decides what Daoist belief _is_? And isn't?

mario-main 3y ago
>there is not agreement on what Christian belief _is_ this isn't true at all. It's quite simply an Abrahamic religion based around following the teachings of Jesus Christ. There are plenty of different doctrines and interpretations but you can tell what is and isn't a Christian church. Same thing with Daoism. Daoism is both a religion and a philosophy with very specific teachings and traditions. You can argue about how to interpret it, but that's not what pop philosophy books like The Tao of Pooh are doing.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > >there is not agreement on what Christian belief _is_ > this isn't true at all. Yes, it is. > It's quite simply an Abrahamic religion based around following the teachings of Jesus Christ. That's not even the most common of the competing ideas, in part because it is useless because it just pushes the lack of consensus out one level because there is no consensus on what, if anything, are “the teachings of Jesus Christ”. There is a broad consensus among the theologians of communities making up the vast majority of self-described Christians on what thr boundaries of Christianity are, but it excludes a fair number of other self-descibed Christians, and even common members of those communities often have narrower definitions. > but you can tell what is and isn't a Christian church. Lots of people “can tell”, but they won’t agree. Where its important to a discussion, people who are careful will define the term as it applies to the specific discussion. There is no one true right answer separate from specific context of usage. (This is true of language generally, but its especially true of trying to do binary in/out boundaries of communities or other spaces with near-continuous variation.)
- brightlancer 3y ago

kgwxd 3y ago

Why should anyone care what van Norden has to say on the subject anymore than anyone else? Anyone who adopts an idea to paint themselves an “authority” on it shouldn’t be trusted, especially in this domain.

mario-main 3y ago
van Norden is an award-winning scholar who has dedicated his entire life to classical Chinese philosophy. He has taught the subject at universities for decades. I think his PhD earns him the privilege of being seen as more of an authority on this particular subject than Benjamin Hoff, whose credentials are a BA in Asian art and learning a Japanese version of Qigong as a hobby.
- kgwxd 3y ago
  None of that means anything. Classical != right/accurate/useful. That mindset just gives authority to age, which does not correlate.

coldtea 3y ago

>Sadly the Tao of Pooh does not outline the basic tenets of Daoism. I mean, one would surely expect a certain amount of straying from scholarly excellence and some limits to its historical accuracy on the subject, given the book features Winnie-the-Pooh...